Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia. Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, beatalons, and laffalons. We are excited to have you as a new friend on this journey with us. Welcome to Speak Friend and Enter a Lord of the Rings podcast. Hi guys, welcome to our episode deep dive on one of my favorite people.

Actually, I'm gonna be bold. I think this is my favorite person in all of Middle Earth and Tolkien's writings. And that's our man, our main man Gandalf.

Very excited. I'm just like trying to like rationalize whether I can actually like anyone more than Gandalf. I think I do, but I can't justify it. Like Faden is my favorite for sure. Well, he just has such a good arc. Like you see his struggles, you know? Yeah, his struggles are so real.

And then like the despair that he goes in, I was like, I just wait. But I know that there are people who love Frodo and there are people who love Sam. I feel like there's fear on that train. A lot of Sam lovers.

A lot of Sam lovers. Yeah. Okay.

So at some point, we'll have to get a better understanding of the percentage of favorite characters and how they swim. Yes, for sure. Because I think I'm in the low end. I don't know that there are people who only love them. I can totally see why though, you know what I mean? And Frodo is the star of the show. But I think a lot of people, I don't know, they like appreciate his work, but they don't love his character.

If that makes sense. Whereas with Gandalf, you can appreciate both his character and his competence. I appreciate that. Yeah. And I was trying to think of like some funny things about, I don't know why I really like him so much, but I was telling Bri, my husband, I was saying, you know, what's weird is I think if I had to pick who I would marry, Middle Earth, I think I would put Gandalf first and Erichor and second, which is wild.

Because Erichor and you know, the star of the star hunk of the show, I feel like. So anyway, that's hysterical. We probably should unpack that later. I don't know why.

You might need to bring this up with your therapist. But I think he's awesome. So yes, deep diving into Gandalf. Okay. So I had a few different things that I had kind of written down about him. Obviously we can talk through just his whole story from beginning to where we know him and the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings. And then I was just more about him, but I thought I would deep dive a little bit into some of the names first and then we could get going into some of his history. Yeah.

I'm going to go like whichever direction you want to go. Because I did notice there was one line that talked about Gandalf in in the similion. So it says, the wisest of the mire was Allorian.

Yes. He too dwelt in Allorian, but his ways took him off into the house of Nienna, our favorite. Love Nienna. And of her, he learned pity and patience. I thought that was a really, like when you're describing a character and you want to like sum them up in brief, but difficult picture.

This can be really hard to do. And I felt like Tolkien did really good job with that sentence, pity and patience. And obviously, like the acting in the movies is incredible because that is definitely the vibe.

Like you feel that on a deep level when you watch him in that movie. Okay. Maybe we need to start at the beginning because that's such a great start from the beginning, but that was my one contribution here. I was like, I remember this line. And we talked about that because we talked about and this kind of goes into the name. So you mentioned Allorian and that's kind of his my our first name that we kind of know him as in the similion. And I was looking up different meanings. I believe Allorian actually means and I feel like there's a lot of names kind of along the same theme for people who are in Valinor, but it's like dream or vision of the mind, which I thought was really interesting that it has that meaning because it's very different from his names on Middle Earth. But it makes me think of him as like, maybe a ponderer or someone who's like thinking ahead about the future like visions of the mind.

I don't know. Like, I think he's a ponderer. He's a thinker. Um, especially tied into how we read it into the similion where it when a Lovatar shows him the vision of Arda, it's literally a blueprint. It's this is the future. It's not just a vision of what is now. It's not like a Lovatar created the earth and then showed it to them. He showed them a vision of what would happen and how it would happen and how things would unfold.

They cut it off right before the juicy bit. But really, like, I feel like based off of that, same vision is almost the same thing as saying, looking into the future and and maybe almost a fort teller. But certainly a plan and something else I love, which we will talk about later on. But he always had especially in the story of the Hobbit and Lord of the Rings, this persistent hope, right? He's like, hope is never lost. Like we're still fighting.

We're still going for it. He was able to see this potential future that a lot of people had given up on. Right. And they're ready to leave people who could also see it.

Even the people who could also see it. So you've got like Elrond, who is doubting that future. You have Denethor, who has denoted completely Saruman, who like all of these people, I'm sure. And I am assuming that with the use of the Palantir, they could see certain things. I'm not certain about that.

But like if they saw it at all, they discarded it. And yeah, it's true. He is.

I like that kind of this. He's a dreamer. He's a visionary. He's able to see and cut through all these, these like future options and find the hope and hold on to it, which is wild and hold on to it. And then obviously we know him as Gandalf, which is kind of the Western men word for him.

I do we have an etymology on Gandalf? Okay. This is such a fun story. I've got an Icelandic list of dwarf names, which I thought there's old Icelandic lists of dwarf names. That's amazing. And so, and that's how you know the Lord of the Rings really is the history of this world.

Oh my gosh. And I just love Tolkien's love of languages, that he's looking through all of these old documents and looking at names and looking at meanings. But and so that's kind of interesting then is it are we maybe maybe this is not an assumption, but are we to take it that maybe the dwarves named Gandalf first, because it does say that he walked him on the elves first. I'm assuming he had a name among them. Well, he does have multiple names. So the Gandalf one is specifically took an assigned to like men to men. And so that's what men call him.

Yes. But it has the meaning staff elf, which I always thought was fun because he walks and carries his staff. And yeah, I think we should also mention because this is also a name that men had given him Storm Crow, right? When he comes to Rohan because of the bad news, Storm Crow, right?

And he's kind of like a traveler, a bear of news, which is interesting. And what is the name that worm ton gives him? Is it a laugh spell? Lark? Lark spell? Oh my gosh, he, no, so that one is an interesting one to me.

Let me look that up. Yeah, because the end, because he's giving him a derogatory name. Yeah, grandma said something and a fair amount of like a fair amount of his names are actually true.

Yeah, it's not a good ratio, which is wild. Because he saw me. Yes. Laugh spell, I don't know how to say it's got an accent on it. Well, that's so good that you picked up on that. Yeah.

Last spell, I name you ill news and ill news is an ill guest. Yes. Oh, yeah. Oh, no, that's literally what it says.

Old English, it means evil tell or evil news. Okay. Yeah. So actually, of the ratio of his names, we have at least two that are bad. We have two that are good, but no one knows who knows his name.

Eloran. I think that's a very, because they call him not even that friend dear. And you'll catch that because it also says that when he walked among the elves, like they didn't know he was there.

They just felt like a feeling. So interesting. So maybe nobody knows his name. Eloran. So they got two bad names for him among them. One good name among El's.

Sorry, I'm keeping tall. It's interesting. One good name among El's, which is meaning gray pilgrim or gray wanderer. And I like that one the best. That's a good meaning. But I thought about this when you were saying the Anna, because we talked about how his gray could be, and I need to investigate this, a symbol of his where he is in his order, his role among the Astari, which are the wizards, right? But it could also be kind of kind of like an affiliation with who he was taught under to have that gray shroud. So I love I don't remember if we discussed this before, when he comes back to stand off the right.

Are we to assume that he's under somebody else's affiliation or he's brought back with him new power? Like, is that a man way thing is I was wondering man way associated with white? I don't know. I feel like it could be something where he's like, I'm going to send back this wizard to replace my bad wizard. I'm giving you all the full power and mantle and everything that requires, you know what I mean? I could say that I feel like man way when I was reading the chapter one, because we just read that. I feel like I was associating him a lot with blue. Do you remember like the blues? Yeah.

So the white I'm almost getting the impression is a wizard mantle of saying like your role is new, like you're stepping into this bigger, broader role. But maybe there's something else there. That's a good one. Okay. All right.

And this one is interesting. I hadn't heard this one from the movies Tharkon Tharkon, which is the dwarf name for him Tharkon. Oh, we never hear this.

We never hear this. And it means staff man. So very similar to staff elf that the men call him. But I guess the doors didn't want to call him an elf. So they called him staff man. Yeah. That's very funny. When you said staff elf, it made me wonder if he had appeared younger in times past when he was richly named.

I think also just like his his sense of magic and who he was. I wonder if they're like man, I've never met anyone like you, right? Like are you an elf? Yeah.

Yeah. And maybe they got confused because all the other elves after him never had beards. But um, very few elf beards out there. That's interesting. Yeah.

Okay. So that is his naming, but Lauren, yes, we're starting with that. And so I looked it up and Gandalf was one of the Maiar who is among the Ainur spirits. So those spirits at the beginning of time that sung the world into creation. Gandalf was among them. It says in his youth. So yeah, would love to see what a youthful Gandalf looked like.

Yeah. And he was known as a Lauren and he lived with a Valar and Valinor. And he became one of the Maiar, which we know the Valar are kind of the people in charge of creation. The Maiar are kind of the spirits that are there to help and assist who served Manway, Varda, Irmo, and Nienna and says from what she learned to patience and pity. And he would walk among the elves unseen and help them become wiser, which you're just getting this very soft feeling and vibes when it comes to Gandalf and his kind of like pre-existence on Middle Earth.

Yeah, go ahead. On the note of wiser, something this could just be a movie-ism, but doesn't Gandalf call Saruman the wise? Yes, he does. Am I making that up?

Is that from the book, so? Let me see. We'll have to examine this because I am very intrigued. Yeah, I'm just kind of intrigued by that. Like, so we have this scene in the in the semirelion where it says, Alorn was considered the most wise or rather he was the wisest.

It doesn't say how other people thought about him. Yeah. So I wonder about that. I want to Saruman have like, maybe his personality was different and he had a bitter reputation. And I think you mentioned before that Gandalf did not necessarily volunteer. He was all in told.

Yes, I was just getting to that point. So he could be too humble. Yeah, I'm curious because I was looking in the books compared to the movies because in the movie he does say he's the head of my order and like really wise or something along those effects. But then in the book, it looks like he says the chief of my order and head of the white council. I don't know if he says wise in the book.

It's just an interesting title. Yeah, in the context of him being called that specifically as the wisest. Yes, and that kind of goes along with what you were saying where he was this really soft kind of like wisdom presence. But then when things were going down with Soran, mainly the Isle of Numenor was wiped out because of Soran Melkor worship. And the surviving men came to Middle Earth and Soran was still there and he was trying to dominate and was finally kind of dispersed with the cutting off his finger with the one ring. Around the time when things are starting to build back up again with Soran, they have a council in Valinor with the Valar and they're like, hey, we're worried.

We had this big this big situation with Soran, but now we're sensing things are starting to pick back up again. Okay. And it was that late in the game that they were having that council? Yeah. Like it was when Soran came back. I believe this is after that whole big draft after his soldier.

Yeah, after his soldier. And so they're like, we need to send some people. And a couple of people volunteered.

Gandalf was not one of them. That's actually really interesting. Sorry. Think about the timing of that. So when we're talking about a silder, Gandalf would not have been walking around the Middle Earth at that time. No, no. Was not there. I assumed he was there.

I assumed he was there. I think that's part of why in the Lord of the Rings, the movies, we're not looking at like Elron or excuse me, we're not looking at Gandalf's mind history. We're looking at Elrond.

Yeah. Because Elrond was there. Elrond was there. And I guess we don't know for sure that Gandalf wasn't around. He just hadn't, if he could be invisible walking around.

Yes. He wasn't set on a special mission. He wasn't set on the special mission as an Astari to specifically do stuff for the Valor. Prior to his mission as an Astari, was he still in Valor? Yeah.

That was the impression is that he lived there and then would go on like he's wandering, which really fits his personality down the road, like just wandering and walks throughout Middle Earth. But so he comes over a little bit later, right? And he's volunteer, Manway says, my man, my man, Lauren, come have a chat with me. I see you did not volunteer.

He did not volunteer, and I would really like you to go. Oh my gosh, Manway is such a manager. His job must be horrible. I feel kind of bad for him.

I'm like, this does not sound like the dream job. This is why they crave the sweet gift of death. Oh my gosh, Lydia.

They're like, man, this Earth is beautiful, but it's a lot to take care of. I didn't deal with this for eternity. That's amazing.

Okay. So at that point, Saruman and Radagast had already been sent. Not too far in advance, but they had already been sent. And so Gandalf was very hesitant. He was unsure about going. He said, I'm nervous. I'm fearful.

And it sounds like Manway was kind of like, and that's why you should go, right? Like you're gonna, he didn't say anything comforting. He was like, nobody, it'll be okay. He's like, yeah, it's gonna be bad. And that's why you should go because you're like appreciating how serious this is.

Yeah, that's messed up. Thanks, Manway. So he goes and he arrives at the Grey Havens, which is that place where at the end of the third movie, you notice they take the boat back to. So it's on the far west coast.

It's on the far west coast. And so he arrives there. And like I said, Saruman and Radagast had already come. And so I don't know if this is the case, but there were elves there who welcomed him.

And maybe they were kind of anticipating. Would they recognize him though? Like is when you go into Middle Earth and you take on like a form, is it a disguise in a sense? Like, are you hiding your door?

I don't know. I think they knew he was and I didn't recognize the elf name for they had a specific name of the elf that welcomed him. And I didn't recognize it from the books, but we could look at that as well. But he basically arrived and that elf kind of knew I think about his mission and his importance. Okay, so sounds like somebody told him in advance because when they talked about the Valar and the way that they can sometimes like clothe themselves in a human-ish form. They definitely implied that look, you're not seeing everything. There is like untold monstrosities and horrors behind this human dies. Like untold power, I guess is the real way to say it, especially when they talk about like Ulmo and how he like barely even pretends. He's like, ugh, being human is sucks. I'm going to be like this monstrous tsunami wave instead. So yeah, that's an interesting way.

So he comes and he shows up and he looks human-ish. Yes, they may or may not know. I guess he must know he's a Myar if they know his mission. Yes.

Okay, I did look this up. So he's robed in gray. He arrives. He's welcomed by Glorifendell.

It says we do actually in the books. And yeah, is he from Riffindell? Oh, that's I'm not 100%.

I think he was the one that actually Arwen took the place of in the movies. Does that ring a bell for you? Yeah, I think so. That's the bell.

It's ringing for me. So I'm pretty sure he was in Rivendell. He's one of Elrond's people where on that chain of command, I don't know. Listen to this.

I haven't heard this before. He was welcomed by Glorifendell, his friend from Valinor. Oh, cute. He was sent to Middle Earth earlier on a similar mission. So I did not know that. So there's been a few people. This is really interesting to think about Valinor as like slowly depopulating as they're sending more and more. I mean, maybe there's constant elf babies in Valinor.

I don't know. But like, but they really are, they're just leaving. They're going off on missions.

And I wonder, it sounds like they haven't been in communication since. So what must it feel like in Valinor? Like these people just keep on going off and then they never come back. I'm sure they're caught in the loop. I'm sure they're like aware. Maybe not the people.

Maybe the Valar are aware. Yeah. Okay, I like that. So he gets there. And then I'm going to have to see who gives him, he gets a ring. And in fact, he gets one of the rings of power as a gift. Oh, I did not see that coming. Yes.

Hold up. He gets one of the rings of power. This is after Soron, like I said, had been defeated, quotation marks the first time. Um, but doesn't that mean that they would have known the rings of power were?

What's what I'm looking for? Like corrupting and or corruptable? Like, because the elves started having suspicions about their rings before the one ring was revealed. Yes. And this is after that.

This is after giving the hand off a ring. So supposedly because the one ring had been gone and Soron was gone, these rings right now just power sources. Yeah, they're just they're they're safe kind of like power boosters would be, I guess kind of the equivalent. Yes, I'm going to use this theme that definitely isn't evil still. I mean, maybe they're right.

Maybe it was like with him gone, not so visceral, maybe it was safe. So do we know? I don't know the names of the rings. I'm assuming they have names. Do you know?

Yes. Who gave it? Was it gladiator's ring? Who gave it to him? So gladiator kept hers.

So she definitely had one of them. And then let's see, Seridan. Seridan, knowing Gandalf's true nature, gave him Narya to aid him in his labors.

And you'll love this. So it sounds like every ring has kind of their own powers that are baked into them. Because if you remember like how the rings are made, we have Celebrimbor who worked with Soron on creating these rings. And the Elvish rings were the ones that when Soron was gone, he really got to create and did all this and created a lot of beauty and wonderful things. And then but then he was like, Oh my gosh, I'm recognizing that something is being poured into this right? Yeah. And so he gives out the Elvish rings very quickly because he senses that Soron's going to come back and he's like, Oh my gosh, something's wrong.

So he gives one to collateral. The Elvish ones are potentially less tainted. Yeah. Fascinating. He gives one to collateral. And then he gives the two others out. And I'm not exactly sure who he gives them out to because I think there is some gifting of the rings. But at this time, he gets his ring from Curedin or CIRDAN. And the ring has very specific powers. It has like the power of fire, which I think is interesting.

Nice. It has the power to kind of ease weariness and it has the power to lift hope and kind of very interesting act as this. Emboldment. I don't know how to describe it.

Like in D &D, it would be the blessed spell. But yeah, it encourages like your companions to be brave. Yeah. Okay. Question.

Yes. Is he wearing the ring, Narya, in Lord of the Rings? He should be. I think that's technically part of him. There's no reason for him to have gotten rid of it prior. No, I think he's still using it. And so people talk about like his fireworks.

So when Soron's power is growing, I wonder if that affects it might, but I don't think he necessarily feels that impact until Soron gets the one ring back. Hence control. Sure. Oh, okay. Okay.

Galadriel. You were saying something about his fireworks. Oh yeah. We were tying like fire with his ring, which has fire capabilities. So he might have just enjoyed fireworks before and been able to do that before. But if you think about his ring, it's kind of like a fun little tie-in. He's very warm and endearing. You do feel like you're emboldened when you're around him.

Yeah. So I really liked the last part about bringing hope because there are so many critical moments where the only reason some line of battle held or the city didn't fall in its entirety was literally because Dandalf was running around saying to battle back to the wall, back to your post, you know, all of these scenes. And I love the idea that like, not only is he just like amazing, but also like there's some, it's almost like the voice from Dune, right? There's a persuasive element that can really just turn people around.

Speak to your heart. Yeah. Yeah.

Very interesting. I think how well fitted, right? Like what a good ring.

It's perfect. And I was just thinking about we were talking about the powers of the rings and as Soren's returning, does that impact it? Because Galadriel talks about like not being able to keep powers at bay from Lothlorean, right? Like she's part of this power that's kind of holding things back from this safe place.

Right. And she's presumably using her ring to help her do that. Part of that power is from her ring to create a safe haven. And so I think part of the recognition is as that power grows and if he ever comes back, Soren, like a lot of my power is going to be gone, right?

That I'm utilizing currently. So that's interesting to think about too. But he had so much stuff going on before we get to know him in the Hobbit, which I think is interesting. So he comes over, we kind of in the Hobbit, the movies got a little bit of taste of like the idea of the Necromancer and Soren's spirit, like slowly kind of creeping back into the world, but not really revealing itself to people. And so he comes in and that's kind of where things are kind of in that there's things going on that don't seem right, right? There's this Necromancer spirit and Markwood. There's some people stirring on this mission to kind of know something bad is going to happen.

He's trying to like, yeah, he's trying to sleuth it. He does come up with a council, which we kind of saw in the Hobbit movies with Elrond, Galadriel, him and Soromon. And Galadriel wants him to lead it. But he says, no, I don't want to be tied down.

I want to be able to wander and chat with people and investigate things. So he says, I think Soromon should lead it, which I think is wild. It's another one of his very like, humble humility moments where he's like, no, no, no, like, don't put me in this position of power.

Like, I'm going to stay on the ground. Also, that's a very interesting thing because that could read in a different character that could definitely read as like a fear of commitment. Yeah, in a sense. Too. But he's committed.

Yeah, exactly. So I wonder if it's really because well, maybe he is like a Rome, a Rome, I think how you say that. And he like really does like the wandering. He likes to walk. But I feel like it's more like because he is sleuthing, he knows he needs to be like, in the details of things, he needs to be going places himself. He can't rely on reports because people could be lying to him. So like, I think there is some element of like, I need to go there myself to understand the matter fully. And I think he was probably correct in that because people would be. Well, you know, Saruman number one. Imagine if like Dandalf was head of the council and he had a rally on Saruman to tell him how things were going in Rohan. Yeah.

Well, nothing would ever get done there. So this is a couple interesting things. So I like your point where you were saying maybe a fear of commitment. And at first I was like, no, he's so committed. But I think it's interesting to remember in the movies when Frodo offers him the ring and he's like, don't, don't offer me that because I would have good intent.

But I would through it wield something really terrible. And I think he always has this suspicion of himself, which actually works out really well. Like he's always like, no, don't give me power. Don't like, I'm going to say it like I'm going to keep myself almost in a safe spot, a safe zone. I wonder, I like that. I really like that interpretation because imagine it from his perspective. He has seen Valar fall. He's seen Meltor, right? He's seen Maiar fall. What is Saruman, but like another Maiar like him. And we already talked about like how close, well, previous different episode, we talked about how close Aole and Meltor are and how Aole gets very close to this almost sin of impatience and this desire to create his own theme.

Different flavor. He doesn't know as far as Meltor. But from Gandalf's perspective, maybe looking at all these events and seeing all these things is like, whoa, it is so easy to fall into this kind of trap. And we see with Saruman how easy it was.

How easy it was. And Gandalf kind of avoided that. He avoided that position.

He avoided that power, that responsibility. And to be fair, Saruman couldn't handle it. So we always assume Saruman's the bad guy because we're like Gandalf, our dude would have been able to handle it.

But honestly, maybe Gandalf had some wisdom there and he was like, I don't want to put myself in that spot. Yeah, I wonder. That's interesting. I do think it kind of gives a different taste and flavor if that was the way he was thinking to the fact that he discovers that Saruman has betrayed them. Yeah, another one. Just like, yeah, because it's like not just like, oh, this is a new and novel thing. It's like, oh my gosh, another Meyer has fallen.

Maybe some guilt. Like, I put him in this possession. I'm the one who said you be the head. You had made this. I wonder, maybe like you putting like him putting Saruman in that position, maybe it's like, did I give him more temptation? Did I give him more power than he could handle?

Because I wasn't willing to do it. That's very interesting. Oh my gosh. Okay. Lydia, I was going to bring this up later, but I feel like it fits in perfectly here because I was going to walk through like some details of a story I thought were interesting or I hadn't remembered.

We'll just do it later. Yeah, it was I want to talk about this one. Okay, so I was listening to different things about his life and the books and details like that. And something that's not in the movies, but is in the books I thought was so interesting is when the ends take Isengard, right? And he goes and he talks to Saruman. He first offers Saruman forgiveness. If he's going to say like if he's going to kind of say, I'm so sorry, that's right, he does that right away. He offers that first.

And when Saruman says no, this is ridiculous, then he breaks his staff and he expels him from their order. And I wonder if that's him saying like, man, like, I don't know, like, obviously he feels for him, like, please make a different choice. But I also wonder if there's a little bit of, from our conversation, a little bit of guilt there of saying like, hey, I'm so sorry. Like, we put you in this really hard spot. Like, come under, there's also, yeah.

And there's also like this idea because we don't hear about this and maybe the lack of hearing about it means that it doesn't exist. But how many of the people that fall under the influence of Melkor or Saruman, how many of them have come back? Have any of them come back? Yeah.

Yeah. It's just maybe he's just really hoping because he does have that pity. Maybe he's just hoping like, oh, we were buddies. Maybe they were buddies, I don't know. But like, they were close enough. Yeah, they were close enough. Maybe this one, this one I can say. Yeah. And that must have been devastating.

Well, that's so cute. Because you should have Saruman, like I said, I'm just like, not him. But yeah, it's a little bit of a different feeling when you think, man, maybe that was just more than a lot of good people or good maya could have handled.

Yeah. And I guess we don't know about the other wizards. The other two, are they brown or blue?

So there's the blue wizards and they, I think we're supposed to be more in the east of Middle Earth. So we don't know how they fared. We don't know anything right.

We don't know anything like that. But it's because it's entirely possible that they fell too. And they felled in the same way Saruman did.

And so if that would, if that were the case, you've got two out of five wizards. Yeah. That's not a great ratios.

That's not a good survival. Right. And Raiagas was sent by Yvanna. So you can definitely tell where his heart is at with the creatures and the green things. But he wasn't necessarily like first on watch, you know what I mean? Yeah, he wasn't pivotal.

So he could have done a little more so you could argue Gandalf's the only one who really was like, I'm diligent. Yeah. Yeah. So I just thought that was fascinating.

Anyways, I love that. So yeah, he comes at this time, where the spirit of Soran is kind of sneaking back into the world. There's some things going down.

And I want to read more about this. But so you know how Gondor is in the south? There was a northern kingdom because Isildur, did he have two sons? Or did he have a brother?

I can't remember. They divided that kingdom into two. They divided it into Gondor and they divided it into Arnor, which was in the north. And Arnor ultimately fell because of the Witch King. So you have things starting to happen. The Witch King of Anemar, like the Ringwraith.

The Witch King of Anemar, the Ringwraith. So you have things starting to happen. Who's he up to? I don't know more about that. Yeah, you have the spirit of Soran kind of sneaking back into Merquid. You have the Ringwraith start showing up again. And so Gandalf and the council, Gandalf actually comes to them and he says things aren't going good. Like there's stuff happening.

Should we be doing more? And Soran at this point, once he's been appointed to the head of council, you get the impression at this point in the story, he's already been corrupted. And he says no, the ring was lost in the river.

It's probably gone to the sea. Soran, even if he has the spirit and he's little minions running around, cannot do anything without his ring. And it sounds like Galadriel and Elrond shame shame were like, okay, yeah, that makes sense. But Gandalf, the one who kind of brings this up is like, Hey, but a whole kingdom of men falls because of the Witch King. So the Witch King of Agmar, Agmar is his fortress.

He had an army of orcs, I believe. Yes. Okay. So we had some whole battle.

That's a whole story we know nothing about. And so like Weathertop, do you remember when Aragorn takes him to Weathertop and he's like, this is the old watchtower of whatever. That's one of the watchtowers of Arnor. And Aragorn is a descendant of that, I believe, or maybe he's a southern Gondor dude because he is the king of Gondor. I can't remember, but he has a heritage from like the Arnor kingdom and men.

Interesting. The Rangers of the North, I think we're kind of like these men who are from that whole kingdom. The north of that whole kingdom.

We're like men from that old Dunedain kingdom that was destroyed years and years ago. So Gandalf's there. That's very interesting because I will, I've never heard of Arnor. So I'll be very interested to see it referenced as we read. Yeah. So Gandalf's there when all this stuff is going down.

Roughly how early like prior to Lord Arrenes, this is a few thousand years. I love that. So the witch team is busy. But it's a long time before. Yeah.

So I think it's 1000 ish. And then stuff starts happening. Man, when is okay.

Let me look at lucky. When does like, let's say the Hobbit start. Let's see. Years.

Let's see. Around 2900. So he comes over around 1000.

2900 is like when the Hobbit's kicking off. Okay. So he has a lot going on. And so he's keeping an eye on things.

I'm sure he's helping in some areas. He's talking to his committee and kind of saying, okay, what are we going to do? What's our strategy?

How do we help? And the committee is bad as useful as all committees. Not that great, right? And so then there's a few things. It's sad that we have to defame Elrond and Gladgeal this way. I know. I just really wish they had, you know, fought a little more for Gandalf's opinion. Well, it's kind of interesting. I wonder if it ties into the nature of elves, you know, that they are kind of like slow to stir and not as like active, I guess, as men.

Yeah. There were no men on this committee, right? No men on the committee.

This is not open to Numenoreans or anyone. Yeah. No, I don't think so. Okay. Very good. Get those men out of here.

They're fast tempered. Yeah. But Alakuzh is wandering this time. This is when he's traveling around, getting to know people a lot. This is when he builds his relationships with the Hobbit. I did not realize that he was building those relationships. Because when you said he was not there at the time of Asildur, I'm like, oh snap.

Like, so he showed up like 20 years before the events of Lord of the Rings, but it's been many generations. So that all tracks a lot better for me. Yeah. It's been many generations.

My sense of time is not great. Yeah. But not as early as that, which shows you how old Galadron Elvrond are. I know.

They're so old. And so, but this is when he's traveling around. He's making friends with the Hobbit. They referenced that there was a really hard winter and Gandalf helped the Hobbits during this hard winter. And that was kind of bonding time when they came to trust him. And he also was like admiring their courage and bravery. Yeah. So they, there's a reference to that. Cool.

I like that a lot. He's going along, trying to do research on like this evil spirit creeping in all this other stuff happening. It's interesting that it comes about in very much the same way as it came about for the Valar.

Yeah. Valar are hanging out. Things are great. And then all of a sudden, Fens are created. And they looked at that thought, Oh no.

Something is deeply horrible here. Not a Fens. But like it's very, but it's very sleepy for Gandalf too. Where like, he can't find the source. He's looking. He's looking. It's elusive. He goes different places. He's finding different themes wrong, but there's no like, I don't know. It's just an interesting way to portray evil.

Yeah. As like in the beginning, it's so broadly dispersed and so elusive. And then later when it concentrates its power, now it's unstoppable. So it's like, you've got to stop it early.

But how do you stop it early when you can't the tendrils of things? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. I know.

And so also, this is interesting because the time into the hobbit and our conversation about dwarf kings. But so one of the things that's off, right? So he's going around and he's investigating all these things that are just off, right?

Like not quite right in the world. And one of them is Thrain, one of the dwarf kings is missing. And so he's searching for him. That's an interesting question.

I bet you're really interested in that now. Yeah, he's searching for him and he goes through Khazadum and that's how he knows that kingdom. He searches through Khazadum, does not find him, exits, but does not go in the same door, does not know the way.

So that's why he was confused and Lord of the Rings. Was Thrain peen in Khazadum at the time? I don't think it was Khazadum. I think he was maybe Thrain from Erebor. And so he's searching for him. He's looking hard. And then he finds him in Merkwood in a fortress of Dolgador, which is where this like evil spirit in the Hobbit movie, like the Necromancer was kind of hanging out.

I remember that name. And the spirit, Sauron, doesn't want to be discovered so he leaves, but what Gandalf finds is this dwarf king is there and Sauron had been collecting all of his old rings. So he had kidnapped the dwarf king, stolen the dwarf ring back, and there was a collection of all the dwarf rings there in Dolgador. And so basically Gandalf's like, oh my gosh, this confirms who this evil spirit is. And so he goes back to the committee and he's like, I found out who it is.

I know it is officially Sauron. And who else would want these rings? Who else would want these rings?

And the committee says, Sauron says, there's nothing to worry about. He doesn't have the one ring. The ring was washed away into the ocean.

It's not a big deal. He's gonna be pulling that ocean card real hard. Like once it's in the ocean, no one could fight. So out of curiosity, when Gandalf goes to Dorgador, Yeah, Dolgador, okay, the last one.

One second, one second, where was it? Dolgador, do you, Dolgador, okay. Do you, do you, or are you? Frame alive or dead? I get the impression he's alive, but not doing good.

Right? Yeah, okay, so he must have been in very poor condition. I think he, I think he dies. I wonder what the reason was for keeping him alive. Well, I don't know.

Stay information. Maybe they were torturing him, but this is the thing. Cause you remember at the beginning of the Hobbit, he says your father, he's talking to Thane. He says your father gave me the key to Erebor. And Thane's like, Sorry, he's talking to Thane. Gandalf, Gandalf is talking to Thane from the Hobbit. I do vaguely remember this, yeah. Was it Thorin, Thorin, that's it.

Thorin Oakenshield, right? He's talking to him and he says, look what I have. I have the key to Erebor, given to me by your father. Is that where he gets it? That's where he gets it. He finds his father. His father was missing and he finds him. It's a completely different story.

Yeah, he keeps dying and he gives him the key for his son. Anywho, anywho. So all of this.

I would like to see that story. So all of this goes down while he's wandering around in that Dane committee, because Soromon's secretly looking for the ring. He says he's been dredging the river. So he's secretly looking for the ring. Yeah, he's been dredging the river, trying to find the ring. And he was pulling that ocean tarp to the ocean.

But yeah, it's for sure washed away into my sin. So yeah, it's not the best committee. He is the worst. This is a woe unto you who established committee's warning. You know, like really, don't do it. Yeah, this is bureaucracy. You don't get sucked up in it.

But yeah, so all of this is going down. And so Gandalf starts doing some thinking on his own. And I always love it when Gandalf starts doing some thinking on his own. And he's like, man, we've seen some terrible stuff. He's like, we've seen the kingdom of Arnor get defeated by the Witch King. We've seen Smog, which is in the mountain, right? The mountain of Erebor is just chilling there.

Oh, I will say after this. So once Gandalf realizes and goes back to the committee that it's Soran, Soran kind of flees from Markwood down to Mordor, and he kind of outs himself. He's like, yep, you're right. It's me.

It was me. Like a typical springy building. Just like, oh, a little. You're right.

Ta-da. And so, but he's just down there. He's just down there, like gathering orcs. There's some orc movement in the north. And so Gandalf's worried. He's like, there's a, there's a freaking dragon in this mountain up north. Arnor is gone. That kingdom of men that was kind of like fighting for freedom.

And again, Soran is destroyed. Yeah. And we have orcs and we have wargs and we have all these things kind of gathering in the north. And so he was thinking if this gets out of hand, like Soran could take the south from the north.

Like the north could gather itself and be a really detrimental force. And so he runs into Thorin Oakenshield and he says, I have a mission for you. Oh my gosh. Really?

Okay. That's interesting context. And he says, we're going to get you back. Yes. And it really just plays into this is like a heist.

This is all about the money, whatever. So Erebor is in the north. Is in that Arnor. It's kind of in the east of Arnor territory. But it's close enough that it is very far north. Yeah.

You have the Shire and basically from the Shire, Bilbo just traveled east. Yeah. No, just so I need to study some maps.

They traveled south a lot. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Interesting.

That's very interesting. So Dandalf is thinking I'm going to take matters into my own hand. Yeah. He does some stratageums. Does he tell anyone that he sent people off to do this? I'm sure he, I'm sure like they see him and he's like talking about it, but they probably just think like, how is he going to beat a dragon? Right? Like they're probably thinking, yeah, like sure.

Go for it. Yeah. Funny. OK. And at this point, dragons are not terribly common, right? They're not that common. In the time of Melkor, they would have been a lot more common.

They were very common. And then it sounds like Gandalf viewed Smog as a potential big enemy. He didn't want Smog aligning himself with Sauron. Right. Right. Because right now he's just more interested in his own greed. But at some point Sauron could say to him some sweet, sweet things like, I've got piles of gold for you.

Yeah, I have something for you to get involved. They're conveniently located in every enemy's city. More mountains, more land.

I don't know what a smog wants, but. Gold. But Sauron could make that persuasive offer because I feel like we've seen, I think it was him or Melkor, but he has done it before. Yeah.

And dragons were made potentially, we believe by Melkor. So. I love that theory, by the way.

I think I've expressed that before, but yeah. I love it. I love it.

I love it. He made one good thing. Dragons are awesome. But yeah, so I love Gandalf is thinking a little bit ahead.

He's like, I'm going to take some stratagem into my own hand. Right. Because we've seen some crap go down and I want to make sure that the north is in a safe place. No one's doing anything.

No one's doing anything. Right. Yeah.

And so he sees Thorin O'Kan shield and he says, let's take back Erebor. Right. And so it does a couple of things. It puts a dwarf back in that kingdom, right, which is Thorin O'Kan shield's main thing. He wants to be king of that mountain.

Kicks out smog. Remains the good enemy. Yeah. And then just makes that overall area a little bit safer. It kind of feels like establishing a foothold. Exactly. Right. So like if Arnor has fallen, let's at least establish a foothold where if we needed to take it back or do anything, if there's anything we can do, at least we can base ourselves in there. Some places we can defend. Yeah.

And there was Lake Town, which I don't know how many colonies of men there were left in the north, but a town of men. Yes. So he has this strategy and he says, I'm going to find you a thief to get you into this mountain. He goes back to the Shire. He remembers Bilbo from when he was a little boy who was always interested in hearing stories and being excited to see the elves. And he goes back and he kind of is like, I think I'm going to pick Bilbo. And he puts that little symbol on his door. It's such a funny, funny thought process for a wizard, you know? Yeah.

He's like, yeah. And it is interesting because it plays into a lot of the themes that Tolkien has built out about like how the hobbit is the little man, the underdog, but like always pulls through because it is so counterintuitive for him to be thinking, yes, the one like Bilbo's probably never stolen anything in his life, like ever. Why would he? So it's very funny to me that that was what he chose. Like this is what's missing from our group.

Yeah, it's funny. Man, I saw it. I read this somewhere or saw this somewhere when they were talking about Gandalf's life and kind of with the council, his discussions with the council as things were happening. And I think it said like Elrond was worried and was like, there's not enough big things like there's not enough big players and big things to happen to kind of make things turn out in a positive light. Like if things are going to go south and so on is going to come back. Like we're not.

So he's already looking at the features and not finding good ones. And Gandalf said something along the lines that was like, I don't know, because hope can come in little places or like very small ways. And I think that's so iconic to Gandalf, right? Where he's like, let's look at the little spots of hope. Let's look at the little possibilities. It is really interesting to me that his solution seems to be almost entirely in the realm of the individual.

Yeah. So he needs to destroy smart. What does he do? He recruits Thorne Oatenschild and Bilbo. He needs to provide an heir to Dondor. So he finds the one dude. His answer is never or rather he needs to create stability in Dondor or somebody who can unite that country.

Probably because the north has fallen. And his plan is not cool. I'm going to recruit, you know, this many men and 10,000 of them. And reduce is just, no, I'm going to find one dude.

Yeah. I'm sure there are other instances, obviously Frodo, but I think it's powerful because I like that a lot. He speaks to stories. He calls to them individually and he says, Erebor is your father's birthright. Like I'm giving you this key. We're going to do something more powerful here, but we're going to get you back. And like he, he calls to individual stories. And I think that's what's so powerful to him is he looks at a person. Do we know like what he may or may not have said to Aragorn? Maybe this is something we'll discover.

Because I know I'm aware that like in the books, Aragorn is not portrayed quite as much of a relented hero. Right. Yeah. He he kind of acknowledges his birthright. He's willing to take it, et cetera, et cetera.

In the movie, I feel like they did a, I liked it, obviously. It's nice to be able to see him move from reluctant to willing to take that on. Because he sees the importance of it. Because he sees the importance of it. And I wonder if he had been reluctant before, but we, but Dandle have already had that conversion arc with him.

Okay. A couple of other things that stood out to me as they were talking about his wanderings that I thought was so intriguing. So this is kind of after, well, I'll make one more comment about the Bilbo Hobbit story. So we know kind of the Bilbo Hobbit story, right?

And they go to Erebor and they're able to rid themselves of smog. And if you don't know anything about Bilbo, get off this podcast. Sorry, I'm not covering it very well.

You can watch the movie story of the XR Wikipedia. That's great. Get out of your noobs. But I think, and I actually don't know if this is his stratagem or this just worked out even better than he could have imagined. But a little bit of a backfire. So the dwarf enters Erebor and he's like, this is my kingdom. Now that the dragon said this is my gold and everybody comes for the gold, right? The men come for the gold. Elves come for the gold.

All this stuff. But then so all of those wargs and orcs also come for the gold. The ones that have been building up in the north. And so this is the battle of the five armies. So he is draining our door of the armies that he was afraid of.

So that's what's so amazing. I don't know if he picked. I'll give it credit. I'll be like, he planned it, but I don't know if he envisioned it going this well, but then all of those people turn around and then he's the one who gets there actually just in time and he says, friends, people are coming. We need to prioritize, right?

Like, let's move this along. So he gathers them up and they have that battle, which efficiently kind of wipes out the main army force of Soron in the north. Had that not happened, Gondor would have fallen many years before. Yeah, or Rohan, right? That northern component. So that was definitely putting Sauron back.

Yes. That put him a step back. And that's why it was so essential for him to coordinate with Soromon to rebuild an army because his army had been depleted in the north.

Very interesting. Because when they say rebuild an army, the implication, at least in the movies, is that we are rebuilding from a sealed door, like from that time, not the implication of dude, I literally had an army like 10 years ago. I do like the fact that is which team of aim are who like builds up that army and takes that team. It really made some staring. He's already staring, but it really made some powerful and like top tint and interesting. He is interesting.

I'd love to know more about the Nazgul. There I mean, there might be my they might be my favorite evil people. They're fun.

I they're really like them. So very quick question. Don't let me digress too far. Is the Arkon stone a tin to a Silmaril? I don't think it is a Simaril.

Some people hypothesize that it is a Simaril that was discovered by the dwarves and missing one or a lost one. But I don't think I don't think the consensus is that it. Right. But like it's got it's a very similar. Similar. Feel nice.

Here we are. The scene is driving people nuts with how pretty it is. And also just nuts in general. Beauty and value. Even the elves want it.

It's a rare. Okay. I just I just want to vibe check that. Yeah.

Silmaril. I think yeah. Some people think it is.

I don't think it's been confirmed. Fascinating. Yeah. Okay. Um, okay. So then after all of this goes down, I just love that strategy and that Gandalf's the one to be like, we're going to do this.

And I'm sure like Elrond is or I'm on. I'm sure someone was like, you're not going to take like. Seven dwarves and a hobbit and like kill smog.

Like he's probably like, this is ridiculous. Small, but destroy the army of the witch in the North. Yeah.

How wild is that? Um, yeah, that's awesome. I also really, I know you want like we all kind of want to believe that he planned it, but I really enjoyed the idea that it was a nice domino fall. Just worked out that he's sitting there in Arab or afterwards seem to yourself. Ah, yes, I've done the right thing. Like the council didn't even think I could do it. Yes, yes.

And then he walks back in like the cat and he's like, of course, I did this all on purpose. Yes, exactly. You're welcome. Um, anyways, I love that.

So, okay. So after that, he does some more wandering. Of course he does. He's wandering. He's wandering. He meets Hereborn. And what's interesting and intriguing is he also hears about, well, he knows about Gollum from Bilbo, but. Right. He's starting to, I don't, I don't want to say he's putting things together here, but he puts Aragorn on a bit of a journey. Actually, this might be after, okay.

One second. So he meets Aragorn after the hobbit, but something else I'm actually going to bring up is I didn't realize this. He meets Faramir and he goes down to Gondor and he, he knows.

Kind of like checking in on the status. So the stewards maybe trying to be like, can I use any of these guys to unite Gondor and maybe great checks in on the stewards. He meets Faramir and it says Faramir spends time with him conversing and Gondolf kind of teaches him and his dad doesn't like it because his dad does not like Gandalf. And I thought, oh my gosh, so many people are like Faramir is the bomb.

Faramir is the best. He's always like, I don't go to war. You know, for glory, I go to war to protect. And I wonder how much cause Boramir had honor. He had honor, but he was a little self inflated and cared a lot about his dad's opinion.

And I got to read that quote cause it's one of my favorite quotes. And I think it's fair mere speaking. Like you said, I don't go to battle for anything other than protection. It's, I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory.

I love only that which they defend. Yeah. It's such a good quote. Oh my gosh.

And that wisdom. But now we wonder like, yeah, where is that? Where is that coming from?

His dad don't got it. Yeah. How long was Gandalf hanging out? Yeah.

I really, how much was he visiting? And so I caught that small detail and I thought, whoa, that's so intriguing that we have these characters that are known for certain things and we're like seeing them all play into each other's lives at different moments. Cause we don't have the story of how Gandalf impacted fair mere, but the conjecture, like you could conjecture that he did. Could there be something there? Fascinating. I like that. I know.

I like that a lot too. I was like, dang. So, okay. With the start of Lord of the Rings happens with Frodo getting the ring. Gandalf was kind of like, keep it secret, keep it safe.

I believe it's at this point. So he's already met Aragorn. I don't know what their initial conversations were about. Whether it's like, hey, Hint Hint, would you want to go down to the kingdom?

And the arc of the movie is different. Or if it's just like, oh, interesting. I'm getting to know this person. I'm getting to, like, I'm feeling things out.

Like this is intriguing. Can you imagine that conversation? They're like sitting down at the campfire and Gandalf's like, who's your dad?

Who's his dad? I mean, literally, like he has to feel genealogy, like genealogy, like interviews for like an hour and a half. Before he, before Gandalf realizes, yes, this is his first time meeting him, though, if he met him as a kid, because he's so curious about is, yeah, I think you said that Aragorn was raised in Riffindale for at least a lot of his childhood. So I wonder if Gandalf met him in Riffindale. I wonder if he met him as a kid.

And then maybe his lineage was clear. Yeah. It's like, I know who you are. Yeah.

We know who he is. That's probably what happened. Yeah. And then you left and you became this weird, like wanderer who camps all the time.

He doesn't brush his hair. It's like, okay, I know who you are. Actually, I bet that's what it is. Yeah. Interesting. Okay.

And so then he, after he has his suspicions with Frodo in the ring, he goes down to Gondor and he does research, but he, this is a specifically the specific suspicion where he's thinking, oh, what's going on with this ring? Not the one where. Yeah. With Bilbo where he was like, oh, this ring, this magic ring is a little powerful.

It is invisibility. So the later suspicion, he goes down, he does research in Gondor, but he also asks Aragorn to see if he can track down the creature Gollum. Cause he says, I think there's something here we need to investigate.

We need to know more. And so he knew about Gollum from Bilbo back in the Hobbit, but I don't think he had done anything or interacted with him. And so at this point, he's circling back around and he asked Aragorn if he can go on a search or hunt for Gollum. And Aragorn eventually finds him. Gandalf, I believe is coming back from doing his research. He interviews Gollum and he realizes he's having all these pieces like fit together. He realizes this is the one ring, but he also realizes that Gollum had been interrogated before by Soron. And so he's like, oh, this is where he's free. This information Soron knows about Bilbo and he knows about Hobbits.

Right. And so at that point, he, he realizes, I need to get back to the Shire ASAP. And that's when, um, actually, I think there's a whole series of events that happened in the book that are different than the movies. There's something about like Gandalf is realizing he needs to get back to the Shire, but then Radagast tells him a message from Saruman that's like the race are already on their way and like something like I need to see you. Yeah, like I need to see you or something along those lines.

And so that's how he gets sidetracked. I see. So there's a little bit of a, a delay.

Yes, a delay. He sends a letter to, to Frodo that says meet me, you know, at this end, but then. And then when you get to the end, he is supposed to have another letter that says meet up with Strider, but then the person you gave it to forgot to send it or something.

Like, it's like a really casual line that I'm like, why didn't you send the letter? Amazing. Amazing. So all of this mayhem is kind of happening at the beginning of Lord of the Rings. Um, okay.

But yeah, so so much happens as like set up and context and Gandalf's life before our beloved LOTR trilogy. Yeah. And there's a lot going on there. Everything else. So I'm trying to think of there's anything else that stood out to me from his story during the movies. We all know a lot of that. So I won't go over too much. I mentioned him offering, you know, Sormon forgiveness. Love that part.

He coronates Aragorn. I just love that touch. Yeah. I think the moments that have always stood out to me the most and I will, I have, I read the books like a year and a half ago recently, but I don't remember the words.

Exactly. Um, I think they're pretty well portrayed in the movie if I recall, but when he's talking with, um, Pippin in Gondor, you know, like that scene where the last door is about to break down and everything. Um, and he, he, he just says like, look, death is not the end. I've seen death. I've been through death.

I was sent back. Like I know for certainty that it's okay. And he describes like the white shores. And like this is so beautiful.

Yeah. It's so beautiful. And it is like exactly that. So peaceful and hopeful, even with all the stuff that's happening. So that, that is one of the moments where I just felt like, oh, he's so inspirational. And this is what I love about him is I just think his ability to inspire and his bravery. And I wrote down some quotes because I feel like I love his quotes during the movie, uh, something my dad said, I thought was hilarious is he thinks that Gandalf is the main character of Lord of the Rings, the hobbit. And the trilogy, uh, just because he's through line, he's the one that keeps everything spinning.

Um, yeah, I could see that. He's like the mover and shaker, the shaker, which I thought was an interesting perspective because he, even though he is always there, it's never about him. He always seems to be serving some other purpose. Um, and you don't get a lot of his inside, in-depth thoughts of like, oh, crap, I need to get here.

This isn't going well. Or like, you just see him. He's, he's putting on a brave face like at all times. Um, okay.

Which I think is necessary. Cause he's like the only one out there. I know, I know.

He's the only one doing his job. But okay, some things that I love from the movie, some funny things, but these are more inspirational. Uh, let's see. Quotes. Um, oh, so this is when Frodo is like, you know, why do I have to do this?

Why is it me? I wish this said, I wish the ring had never come to me. Right. And Gandalf says, you know, and so do I, and so do all who live to see such times, but that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given to us.

Right. I think about that quote all the time. So good. It's so relevant.

Like anything in the world where you're like getting like, when you look at it, anything, why? Yeah, it's super, super relevant. And then I love this one because I think we could have a whole another deep dive on Gollum, but, um, Gollum is such an intriguing character in this and really is almost like this, the start and the end of the hobbit and the Lord of the Rings books is kind of with Gollum.

And so when Frodo is thinking very unmerciless, very unthoughtful thoughts. Let's go to him. Yeah. Sure.

We'll be done with the run. Uh, I love that Gandalf is quick here not to judge. And he says, many that live deserve death. Some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them, Frodo? Do not be too eager to deal out death in judgment. Even the very wise cannot see all ends. Right. And so powerful, so powerful.

And it's also really interesting because at that point in the movie, at least, and I think this is true in the book too, depending on, to remember how the timeline is set up, but certainly at that point in the movie, the audience is so on Frodo's side. They're like, ew, that creepy thing. Let's kill it. Very disturbing.

It's very creepy. Um, but they did such a good job in like the later movie in two towers to show that other side of Smeadol show the pitiable aspect, show even the friendly aspect, even the funny, like he has so many funny lines. Good lines. Um, and like, obviously they needed some humor in order to break up some of the like hard, heavy stuff that was happening in that movie, but it's so effective in making you understand, whoa, there is more to go on. There is more going on here.

And you, by the end, you have come, at least for me, by the end of Return of the team, you really feel much more in line with what Dandalf was saying. Like, how would you judge this? How can you judge?

How can you do this? And so it's just perfect that Dan, not Dandalf. That golem was killed, um, basically by himself. Yeah. Like, I don't know how I would feel if Sam had killed him.

Yeah. You know, or Frodo. And I guess Frodo was trying really hard to kill him at the end, but I looked at the end with Frodo. I'm like, Oh, Frodo, you lost it.

You are, I, I, I looked at that as him failing. Um, and so yeah, it's interesting. And like the success of the whole mission ultimately came down to this person that they were basically just trying to deal with and try to give mercy to.

But he is the only one that got them in. Like, so it's just very interesting because you definitely come to see Dandalf's perspective very unwillingly. I think I love that quote.

And then this one, I think is just so short and so simple, but, um, hits home. I feel like is the world is not in your books and maps. Right.

Like, uh, so easy. And I feel like Tolkien would be someone to really get involved in his books and maps, but, um, I don't know. But have the willingness to acknowledge that it's not about like the map is just the terrain. It's not the actual. Yeah.

Yeah. But like really changing people's lives, really getting out there participating in the world is different. And that's how Dandalf was. He was out there participating. He was participating.

Like very strongly. Cause yeah, he's a mover in Shadr. He's moving nations.

He goes to look at Rohan and he says, how did I fit Rohan? Well, we start by fixing this one dude. Um, and that's like a really powerful seat. Yeah. Um, the healing of they didn't obviously does love the Aiden, but it's very powerful. Um, just in the context of Dandalf is out here to get stuff done. Yeah. He is going to do it by any almost. He had limited resources that were for a look at like what he's working with.

It's usually a rag tag. Oh my gosh, she has not many people. It's amazing what he did. It's done. Um, there is one more scene in the movies that I really, really enjoy. Um, so when, um, I'm trying to remember which scene this is. This is the retreat, I think from the, the, the river in Dandor. I'm forgetting the name of that city.

Australia. Thank you. That's a brutal thing. Retreat from Australia and the, um, the nostril are like praying on the riders as they run and Dandalf comes out of nowhere. And that scene when the, when the music hits and his beacon lights up so. It's so good. You see him as a protector and I, and that's the, and that's the hope. Like you feel the hope instantly. And that's the thing.

Okay. I love, um, one more detail that I didn't realize that in the books, the ringwraith, the head of the Nazgul comes to the gate of, um, minister. He's at the gate and Gandalf meets him. Right.

Oh, did. Gandalf meets him and holds him back from entering the city. And then at that point, Rohan comes and he's distracted. He goes off to that front and that's when they had in fights him and that's when, um, a win fights him and kills him.

But something else I just made me think, man, it was a badass. Because Gandalf was like, okay, I'm standing up to you. Right. Like he was there to try to defend.

And he was satisfied with driving him off. Yeah. But like, I don't know if Gandalf going to kill them. I'm assuming no, because even though he was this tarry, I think the man, I don't know. I just think. Yeah, we don't know. We don't know.

Anyways, that's interesting. Um, so imagine taking Gandalf out of these movies. You couldn't or these books because he is the beginning of every, like every quest. Boom. There's a dandalf.

Yeah. Um, every like big pivotal moment, Gandalf saving the day. Dandalf making other people save the day.

What's that term? Like healing people. Yeah. Like Kingmaker, right? Like he is the one. He's like making things happen.

Like the chess player behind the game. Yeah. Um, it's very impressive. It's very impressive. And yeah, just so such a, such a great character, such a great guy. Um, but yeah, I really, really love Gandalf. So inspiring.

Um, okay. I was trying to find a little bit of what happened to him after Lord of the Rings. It sounds like there was a very long journey going all the way back through the middle of her retire and create a firework shop in the, in the show. That would be so cute.

I really wish that was the case. Um, he did go all the way back. So I think it's sweet. Actually, they went back to Eddara's with a funeral, um, parade for Theoden. There was like, they had the coronation. They stayed there for a period of time. And then they traveled back with the Rohirrim and went back to Eddara's and buried Theoden and kind of gave him his respect. Who is Thaven's heir?

I guess I've never thought this through. Is it Aomir? Yeah.

And so I think it would be the nephew Aomir, which is Aowyn's brother. Okay. Yeah. So that tracks.

I think that tracks too. And, um, Faramir at that point would be Steward, which is kind of fun. So you have Eric Gordon and Faramir as Stewards, uh, Faramir as the steward. But so Gandalf goes all the way back to Eddara's. He then goes kind of like back tracks. They go, um, through Rivendale. They go all the way back to the Shire. He drops the hobbits off there and he actually leaves them because in the books there's still some leftover evil men from Soramon's reign.

The racing of the Shire. Exactly. So he actually leaves them there to deal with it and to clean that up and wrap that up. And he probably thought to himself, I don't need to deal with this too. Finally, I've raised these boys.

They're competent. And so he drops them off there and it says he goes and spends some time with Bombadil. Dang Bombadil, who we just is an elusive mystery, but the thought process is he's there for years. He's there until he meets up with Frodo and the others at the Great Havens.

And they go to the Great Havens. And we don't know if he's with Bombadil the whole time. We don't know if he's traveling or what his adventures are. Um, but at the Great Havens, he gets back on the ship with Galadriel, with Frodo. Um, who else is on that ship?

Bilbo. And they sail off back to Valinor and does Elrond also go with them? I can't remember if he goes earlier or if he's on that ship.

I feel like he went earlier. We'll have to investigate that. We'll have to check that.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe he deserves a retirement. He also suffered.

Yeah. But it was really interesting because typically I see Gandalf as such a stalwart, strong figure. He never seems to really show. He shows intimidation, but he never shows like, Oh my gosh, I'm scared. He has the bravery to like work through the fear. Yeah.

And so. So you look at this as like he had to recover. But actually it was interesting because I always see him as being so stalwart and so strong, but reading his story of being like, I don't want to go.

I'm scared. And like all of this arc of him pushing himself and pushing himself to be there and to try to be more. I look at him getting on that ship and I think, Oh my goodness. I wonder if he's tired. Like I could see someone being like, I'm feeling good. I'm tired.

I came to do what I needed to do and I'm ready to go home. Like, yeah. Um, kind of. That's very interesting. Well, and again, it's like when you talk about it in that context, I'm like, of course they crave the strange gift. You know, it's exhausting. This world is exhausting. He is being shuffled off his mortal coil. When you're the only man doing anything.

Um, yeah, that's that's interesting. But that scene in the movies is very touching. I cry like a baby every time. You're like, don't go every single time. But then now I'm like, I understand why you want to go. This place is a mess. Yeah, this place is a mess. Oh, but yeah, so good.

My favorite character. So we don't know necessarily what's going on once they did develop. Once we get to Valor, I didn't see any updates on what the life is like or what the process is like. So all we know is that he probably has a firework shop there. I love that. Yes. We're going to say yes. And then Legolas and Gimli come a little while later.

And I just think they're all having a good time. Yeah, Legolas leaves at a later time. And he asks Gimli if he wants to come because Gimli is old by that point.

He's really old. And he says there's one of these last seats left on a ship. I think Legolas might take the last ship of the elves out of Middle Earth.

And Gimli says, OK, and he goes with them. Wild, I did not know that. So in Valor, can people die? I don't know if they do, actually. I think there might be something that's like kind of everlasting in the water. Yeah, because I thought there was something in the Silmarillion where it says, you know, this is the land where the eternal beings live and there for nothing.

Their death could not touch anything. I love the idea of Gimli just being ancient and old and crusty. And Legolas still beautiful.

Still looky, but like the way he does. Yeah, I love that. Well, I wish we did know more about the ending. But like we can imagine that.

I love the fireworks. Exactly, like the imagination, like the vape-ness, leaves because of the vape because it's so vague. At least room for imagination and like this nice little happy ending that we can carve out for ourselves. For sure.

OK, well, did I inspire you? How does he rank in your list of characters? Did I move him up? Oh, he's very high.

He's very high. I we will, you know, let's mark this down as like an episode idea, but we should make our reintains of characters. We should.

With like why they speak to us. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, Phaedon is still top. Of course, I've got to find. Perfectly. I've got to find some of his quotes. I can't quote them off the top of my head because I'm ballish.

So I like my rising stuff. Oh, but there is a scene in Two Towers where Phaedon is putting on his armor. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. And he is quoting that one poem. The horse and the rider.

Yes, where is the horse and the rider, etc., etc. I cry like a baby every time. Every single time. Oh, yes. And I just love that. I don't know why I love it so much. It's probably speaks to something I need to talk about with a therapist, you know.

But I love it so much. But if I had a rain come like right now, I mean, Dan Holt is very high for me. Very high. And it's because he is like the epitome of hope. He's there. He inspires. He saves. He protects.

He does. He's every good theme. I know.

He's very high for me. I know. You know, it's so funny. This is actually I was thinking about Phaedon. I love Aragorn has like kind of his own little speech at the end of the king return of the king. Gandalf has a lot of things that he says. Phaedon, when he brings his whole army to the gates of Gondor and they think they're all going to die, he menses nowhere. He just screams death. I know. I love it.

Freaking screams death and he gets people jazzed. Yeah. Ride for ruin and the red dawn. So good. Oh my gosh.

Wild, wild. And he just has a strength because I think with Gandalf, I almost get the impression. That hope comes more comes easily to him.

He has something that seems hopeful. Even Aragorn. Yes. He has moments. He has moments of doubt and worry, but he seems like he's determined to hope.

They didn't have seen hard days. Yes. And he he just feels more human to me. Almost. He's like, this is a typical man.

Yeah. And this is how the typical man would react to some scenario like this. And this is sometimes how people feel in their real lives, even though we don't have horrible, you know, armies of works and stuff. And what I feel for him is that he, I think, dwells in a lot of sad thoughts or pessimism. But yet he's still like, and maybe that doesn't always serve him, right? He could probably be a little bit more positive or hopeful. But yeah, it doesn't.

At the same time, find so many ways to say, I'm still going to show up. Right. And that is wild to me. Okay, it turned into a mini episode on the end, but my bad. We'll have to do another episode. Yeah. Okay.

That sounds perfect. Thank you so much for listening, guys. This has been a delight and hope you will join us again for another episode soon. Thanks, y'all. Bye.