Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia.

Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, beatalons, and laffalons.

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Hey there. And I was looking through our episodes, Lydia, and I thought it was so funny because we've definitely done a deep dive on Gandalf already, but it's like we just we just can't stay away from the Ishtari. They're so fascinating. We had to do a deep dive on our man, Saruman.

Yeah, I actually I'm going to put in the show notes. I'm going to say something like look at a deep dive on our other favorite wizard. Yes, yes. Because like legitimately he is my other favorite one. And we don't know enough about the other ones. We never see them. Oh my gosh.

So we've only gotten Gandalf and Saruman. In the Lord of the Rings trilogy. Yeah, that's all they really go into.

Also, I mean, we're most of the way through the similar line at this point. So if we were going to see the other wizards show up, I would have expected them to show up by now. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But they haven't.

Oh my goodness. I have some good stuff on that. So yeah, I'm very excited about Saruman because I had I had a couple of things. First of all, just and we'll have to talk this towards the end, the movies like Christopher Lee, the depiction of him so good. And like that scene where it's like, who do you serve? And they're putting that white hand and he's like Saruman like I this was going to be my little introduction tidbits. I would say that Saruman for me is like the main evil people person in the Lord of the Rings movie.

He's he's the antagonist with a face with the face because the

eyeballs there not quite doing it for you.

But Saruman is the one where you're just like, man, this guy is plotting. This guy is like, you know what you see? Yeah, all the little behind the scenes, making his army coming up with explosives. It's it's it's epic. Yeah, it's really cool. I'm actually going back to what you said about the white hand of Saruman. Yeah.

So me and my little sister, we are in the blue Lodun, which is like a hot springs. Oh, yeah. And they have these little mud mask things of like, I don't know, whatever dupes they come up with. So everyone's walking around. They've all got these masks on in Portia by sister. We were like, you know what this you know what this reminds me of? This reminds me of the white hand of Saruman. So we did hand prints on each other's faces. It was so funny. Who do you serve?

Yeah. Saruman. Saruman. And you know, I actually had this thought as I was like writing stuff down about about him and like putting my notes together, where it was just like, if you're evil, is it requisite that you pick a body part? Like the eyeball for Soran, the hand for Saruman. Like I was like, if I were to join this trio, what would be my body? Maybe I could be like the ear or something.

Always listening.

Always listening. Exactly. Maybe I would do some teeth or something.

Well, you definitely have to pick a cool Lodo because like the eye makes a cool Lodo the hand makes a cool Lodo. They're really into their draft design. They're just strong art department. It's very epic over in Evil Land.

Yeah, but it's all body parts. I feel like that's the trend. So you have to print some trend. Yeah, I would have to be bold. I'd be like, guys, I just don't think this is the way that we should go. I'm going to pick something else. Nobody wants my my footprint on there. Oh my goodness.

Okay, so I was trying to think about where to start. And I thought we're better than this bomb quote of Aragorn from the two towers. And this is about Saruman. I think this is after he's kind of like gone down maybe the evil path and it says once he was as great as his fame made him his knowledge was deep, his thought was subtle and his hands marvelously skilled. And he had a power over the minds of others. The wise he could persuade and the smaller folk he could daunt that power he certainly still keeps. There are not many in Middle Earth that I should say were safe if they were left alone to talk with him. I just think, wow, what a dude, what a power we want to deep dive into this guy who he was, who he is, how he his life story.

It just occurred to me that I said something earlier about how, you know, we're in the Silmarillion now we haven't seen the Astari ship. Yeah, but they don't show up, right? Because they were sent down specifically for Sauron?

Yes, they were sent down specifically for Sauron, but something that blew my mind and this is a great place to start with. Let's see if I can find it, blah, blah, blah. Yes.

Okay. So this was somehow I think I looked at the the little notes for this. So they want to make sure this is where I think this is in the other notes of Tolkien where this is written up. But basically, so Saruman as we know was a Maya. He was living with the Valar and Valinor. I mean, we got to start out with he's a Maya who went evil. So who was the Valar he was serving? Mordorff. Owlay. Oh, wait.

Yes, done. Saruman. Sorry. I blaked. Of course it was.

Yes. Yes. Yes. Saruman was a Maya of Owlay. And it's like at this point we're just we're like, this is insane. Sauron was a Maya of Owlay. Who else was a Maya of Owlay that went all of them?

The Balrogs? The Balrogs? Yeah, we can. Well, I don't know if those are all for sure under Owlay. They were fire. Maya is what we understand. Yeah.

Um, who else was there? There were others. It just doesn't go well for Owlay. It's been multiple times.

Yeah, everyone he picks. He has he has bad taste in in Maya. In apprentices. In apprentices. So Saruman was a very powerful Maya. He was under Owlay the Smith, of course. But what's so fascinating to me is he had a role earlier on that we haven't really heard about except for in these other notes that Tolkien wrote up. So basically when the elves were first awakened, we know that the hunter Orym was sent around to like gather the elves and try to bring them to Valinor. But it sounds like there was this force of five guardians. It says that we're sent to reinforce Melian. So do you remember our lady, our queen lady Melian?

Yeah. So it sounds like the Valar sent a few people similar to the Ishtari, but a small group of people at another crucial point in history. It sounds like this is a trend for them where they send a few people and they say gather all the elves, right? Or like make sure you're on a specific mission.

Go make it happen. You're on a specific mission. Go make it happen. So it sounds like that was his very first job. Saruman to Dard Melian. Saruman. Saruman. I get Saruman. Saruman was to go out and be part of these five guardians early, early in the day.

And when we say five guardians, I mean, are the other five guardians the other Ishtari? How many are there again? So is that the implication that this was like the Ishtari's first job?

I don't think this was the same group of people. This was, I don't know if we even know who the other members were.

Because we have the Ishtari are Gandalf, the gray, Saruman the white. There's a brown, is that right? Radigas the brown.

And then there's two blues. And then there's two blues. And so those are five. It's true. That's true. And so I think it's more showing a trend of the Valar. That

they send five. That's like their secret, that their special number.

They send this special group whenever there's like key things happening that they're like, we don't want to go ourselves, but we're going to send like some peeps, right? And so it's a trend. It's not just this point in time that they're especially concerned about. It looks like it's something that they've done before.

Okay, very cool. So Saruman's part of this task force apparently does great because he's sent in as a next task force. Yeah, exactly.

Well, but then this is what's interesting. So that's his first task force. And then we're hitting the second age, right? Sauron is back, but he's being defeated, right? He's being defeated. His ring has been cut off. And so he's in hiding.

But it sounds like in Valinor, the Valar were still concerned that Sauron was there and he's probably going to come back. He's causing mischief. And so that's when they have this council and they're like, let's send, let's send some Maya over. But what I think is fascinating is I'll talk through some of the others as well, because I just think this gives interesting context. So Saruman, and my understanding is probably because he had gone on one of these before, he comes forward and he volunteers. Okay.

Because I remember when we talked about Dandalf, you said specifically Dandalf did not volunteer.

Exactly. He was made to go. And so Saruman was the first person to step forward and he said, I want to be sent. Right? So Owlay didn't say, oh, pick this guy. Saruman says, I want to go.

I mean, I don't think at this point he's corrupted. I don't think so. Perhaps he is like arrogant.

But he likes power is what I'm thinking.

He likes some status. Okay. Okay. And so then number two, we have Manway picks Aloran or Gandalf, our man Gandalf. And that's the number two pick. And what's interesting, and I don't know if this is true, but as I was reading like little wikis and people's write ups, you almost get the sense there was a little bit of like competition for Saruman in his head. Do you think Saruman was like, so I volunteered, but when Manway, Tina of the Dodds picked somebody, he doesn't pick me. He doesn't say, oh, my choice was already taken. That's so wild. I guess I just won't choose somebody. Yeah. And so he said he really had somebody in mind.

Exactly. And so he's feeling a little bit, from what I'm gathering, we're getting a sense of like, he feels a little bit threatened by Gandalf. Right? It's like the number two pick and Manway picked him and he said, I want this guy. And what we do know about Gandalf, the wonderful person that he is, is he was scared.

Not by us in any way. I love him, even though we talked about his gray moomoo and how it needs to be washed. I do love him. And so I just think, I think it's so fascinating that Gandalf was hesitant, right? He was like, I don't know, I'm kind of scared, right? Like Soran scares me. But this is not Gandalf's first time in the world, right? It's just his first time on a task force. It sounds like Gandalf would go walking.

Yeah, he would go walking. He had a lot of sympathy for elves and men. He was, he was, he worked with Manway, he worked with Nienna. He had like, he had sympathy for people.

But not to make this the Gandalf episode of dinner. I just wanted the reminder, because I think there will be a very interesting contrast between Saruman and Gandalf. I think so too. Because

they're the closest contrast we can have to each other. Exactly. And then just to go down the list, because like I said, I do also agree. I think this adds contrast.

I think it's hilarious. Because then Yovanna says, well, if you guys are sending one someone, she says, I want to send someone. And that's when she makes rat a gas. Who, as we know, loves the animals, loves living things. But we're just, I'm just, this is Yovanna all over again, where she was like, well, if you're going to make doors, I'm going to make ends, right? Like if people are going to be going, I'm going to have my interests represented too.

She's always looking out for herself. Love that about her.

And her creations, right? She's like, I mean, what a good, what a good creator to have, someone

who's like, really, very active, very defensive.

Yeah. And advocating for her creations. So she's like, I want to send someone. So she, so she nominates rat a gas, which I just think is hilarious.

And then what are these blue wizards who, who send some?

Yes. So in the blue with her wizards, which I would love, I would just love to have more detail here. They are selected by Gorm, the hunter, who would, who would wander, who would wander the world. And what I think is fascinating about these, okay, so now that we've discussed how these, these individuals were picked and kind of their roles, I want to discuss a little bit, their colors again, because I think that's also interesting and like has a little bit of, I don't know, something going on with it.

Let's see, where did I put my notesies on that? But basically, so because Soromon was the first to volunteer, and you get the impression he's done this before, he was pretty confident. They did say, okay, you be, you be the leader. You be kind of the head of this group.

But what's so interesting is when we're talking about where's, okay, let me look this up again. Colors for the wizards. What we've gotten a sense of is that the different colors represented almost more of like different responsibilities than they did like a specific hierarchical tier of like, I'm number one, you're number two, you're number three.

Like, it was, you have two blue wizards because whatever their responsibility was, they shared it. Exactly.

And so Soromon, it looks like his was supposed to be like, he's the leader. He's the one who's going to be the strategist when it comes to creating a process of how they're going to defend against Soron. And you see this because he comes to Middle Earth, and he actually sets up the white council, which is him, which is gladrile, which is a few other kind of like key players. And so you see this him being kind of this, um, he's the head, he's the face, right?

Yeah, people go to him. He's the contact for outside parties, etc.

Yeah, exactly. And then it sounds like we know Rattagast Mission very clearly by who selected him, which is his, his thing is like, I'm going to be taking care of the floor and the fauna. And I do think it's interesting, like this was a very anti-Soron task force.

And in my head, I'm like, Yvanna, why you, why are you picking someone to go on this task force? Like what, what beef do you have with Soron? And then I think about how industrialized they make Soron appear where they're cutting, especially with under Soromon, like cutting down the trees, building these, you know, epic industrial things. And the Hobbit, we're seeing like this darkness kind of seep into the forest.

And it's like with Mordoth too, where they create these wastelands because they don't care to preserve anything.

Wastelands. And so part of me was like, Yvanna, this is not your, this is not your thing. But then I was thinking about it and I was like, you know, it kind of is her thing. She's like, I want someone to protect my interests.

I also think there's another aspect of it too. And I think we saw this, I don't remember where in the similar alien, but we saw like the shadow had extended and the first sign of it was like the spiders. And like creepy creatures were like coming around.

And so if you had somebody who was more in tune with like what was going on with the creatures and the forest, the land, the land, I think that maybe you could almost have. It's like an early warning radar. Like, okay, we think things are going great in this land. But turns out that on the east, there were 32 more spiders born last year than should have been, right? Here's my powerpoint reservation.

They're bigger than normal. Size is increasing.

Yes, webs are a stickier, not liking the trend. So I really feel like there could be some aspect there of like, you know, there are signs. There's a sign of the shadow going out and going forward. And these are some of them. And if you had somebody in tune, you would know. Exactly.

And so it gives me a little more respect for Radigas. Because in the Hobbit, they make him seem like, I know this bumbling, like, I just care about the animals.

They kind of underplayed what he was probably responsible for. But that was his job. It was his job to care about the animals and care about the land. And to his credit, he could tell when things were up, right? Because he was seeing it in those components.

And then we do have, which I think is interesting, our two unnamed blue wizards. The con the concept is that they had something maybe a little bit mysterious in their assignment, right? Not super clear, not super straightforward. Hidden from the other story. Yeah, they were from, well, I don't know if it was hidden from the other history, but hidden from us at least, where it's like, they had a mission that was not clear to the rest of, to us and to the rest of middle. And it's not named in the notes. Like, even the notes, they don't name the wizards, they don't name the mission.

So Tolkien mentions them and mentions that they have an eastward journey into the unknown, right? But he does not specifically talk about their fate. And so what I think is interesting is Oroam, the one who picked him, the Huntsman, he's the one who has wandered the world. You know what I mean? He has gone far into the corners and seen all the different types of people.

Maybe he knows wonder if he's saying like, yeah, we're going to have three people on this main area, right? Where things have been going down for years. But what about those edges? Yeah, like what about those edges and those further places where things might not be happening as much to the, to the common knowledge, but I want people out seeing the places that I've seen, right? Like those smaller areas. So that's my kind of guess, knowing who picked them.

And then we have Gandalf. And it sounds like Gandalf is really supposed to be the people's person, right? The boots on the ground. We can see that with his, his name of being like the wandering wizard, the traveler, the pilgrim.

And he's supposed to go out and interact with people.

He's supposed to be getting the intel. Probably get news. Yeah, he's like the intel guy. Yeah. So, and that makes sense. But then circling back to Soromon, I just think it's so interesting where he sits in this broader group of people and his responsibility and the comparisons that we can draw between them. So I'm going to move forward a little bit. And now that we know all these people have been selected, they've been picked, they're coming to Middle Earth. I thought it was fascinating. Can I ask one quick question about the time?

Yes, please. So are they sent down right after Soron is defeated?

So they are sent down, they are sent down in the first, I think it's like 1000 years into the third age. So let me see. Soron.

I'm curious about that because I want to know where the Valar like immediately suspicious. Yeah. Soron. Oh yeah, he's, he's dead, but like we've seen this trick before. Yeah.

Okay, so it says the defeat of Soron marks the end of the second age. So, so they wait a while. But then when does, okay. And you said they were sent down in the thousands year of the third, I believe so. So it's a rival timeline in Middle Earth. Let me look this up real quick.

Yeah, of course. Because that, that is interesting. Because to me that says they believed Soron was dead. And it's only later, much later when they say, well, you know, we still have those 32 more spiders that are being born every year. Like they see signs that kind of denote otherwise.

I think it's interesting. I was kind of thinking the opposite where I was like, I feel like that seems early because Frodo doesn't inherit the ring in the third age until 3000 in the third age.

Okay, I see what you're saying. Yeah. So if they saw signs, it'd be really aggressively early.

So the Astari are sent around 1000. So that's 2000, 3000. They're sitting around for 2000 years before the ring gets passed on to Frodo and they're seeing some action.

No wonder Soron went on board and was like, yeah, I got to play on the other side of this board. We got some action started.

Well, because we know, and they kind of referenced this in the Hobbit, like they were shadows, they were whispering, the spiders were getting stickier, all that gets. But like, if we're talking about the ring and stuff happening in Lord of the Rings, that's 2000 years after they made it. Yeah, that's a long time. Which is a long time.

So okay, and then let me see. So the Astari came around 1000. Who was first? I thought it was an order of Astari arrival. I just want to double check that I have this. Okay. So it looks like, it looks like, oh, this is interesting.

I don't know if I would have guessed this. So I thought Soromon came first. And he did. He came first and kind of set things up, established things. Then one of the one of the blue wizards came relatively early. Gandalf came and he joined Soromon. Then Rattagas came and the second blue wizard. So the two blue wizards didn't actually come together. They came a little separate.

I wonder if it was a matter of like reinforcement, like, okay, we sent the blue wizard. And it turns out there's more to do there than we thought.

Or maybe region where it's like, okay, this one's going here. We have another one to go to another area. Because I always associated them together, but that might not be the case. So I thought it was really interesting because Soromon's kind of already there when Gandalf arrives. But it says that, so this is Gandalf's ring we're going to talk about again. Caredon, I think the shipwright, let's see, is the one who gives, yeah, Gandalf his ring. But what's fascinating, what's the meaning of the ring?

So this is one of the three rings of power that the elves were given. Did Caredon have one? Caredon, yeah, did he have one? Caredon had one of the rings. And so I think at that point it was like Galadriel, him, and then someone else had a ring as well.

Okay, so Caredon gives his ring to Gandalf? Caredon gives his ring to Gandalf when he arrives. How did I not know that? I didn't realize he had arena power.

Yeah, his, he probably told me this before. His Nenya, his Nenya. And what is so amazing about this is it's a ring of fire power. And so that plays into his fireworks, that plays into the warmth that potentially he makes people feel like this, this, this heat or a friendship.

People talk about that playing into the powers that he has. We must have distressed this and I just block it out somehow. I love, I love Nenya. I think it's so fascinating he has it. Yeah, because that is really interesting. So he has a ring of power. He knows the responsibility of that. Is there any temptation? Because the Wagerlagel talks about hers.

I don't think so. I think, I think it's mainly like it would be a problem if Soren had the one ring. But without Soren having the one

ring, this is just a ring of power. Right, this is a ring of power. Use it while you can. And then this has also got to be a wedge between him and Saruman too, because Saruman doesn't have a ring. But that's the thing.

So Saruman comes early, he starts establishing things. There's no way he loved that happening.

Exactly. What do you mean you were just friends with an elf guy who gave you his ring? And he gave you his ring.

And so that's the thing. So Gaddel comes later and Cureden has been seeing all of these, all of these people starting to come to Ishtari. And what I think is fascinating is the Ishtari were on a secret mission. So technically only that certain number of elves like Galadriel, Elrond, Cureden, a few others knew about the Ishtari. Only they know why they're here. They knew that the gods had sent them. And nobody else like Rohan didn't know this. Aragorn didn't know this. Maybe he could suspect. But like only those few was like these are messengers from the Valor.

Well also, does anyone know that they're Maya? I would assume so. Are they even keeping that secret? Because I mean, you would assume so. But like Danoff goes by so many names. Does he go by so many names? This is like, okay, well the last visit of these people, you know, 400 years ago, I better have a new name so they don't remember it's the same me.

Yeah, I don't know. I think they knew they were powerful. I think that's where the concept of wizards comes from.

Where they're like, well, these people are different. Yeah, but they may not have known that different means Maya.

Yeah, exactly. Okay, I'm into it. And so I just thought that was so fascinating that they come under this mission and this mantle and people So, some people know about that about them, but not everybody.

And then- I feel like Saruman would be the sort of person who would want it published. Who'd be like- So he could be like, I'm a big baddie. I'm here on this cool, important mission. He just, just with that vibe. And maybe that's unfair to him at this stage of his development.

But I do think like exactly what you were saying, like the concept of Gandalf then comes and Kyriden is like, here's your ring, would really probably tweak him, right? Because that's a ring of power.

That's something significant. And then I told you about this white council that he had set up with kind of all those key members that knew their mission. All those people who knew their mission. And what's funny is it said that Galadriel was more inclined to have Gandalf be the leader of the white council. And so they picked Saruman. They picked Saruman.

But you get a little sense- Every term. Exactly. You get a little sense of like, he's not pleased. He's not pleased with all of this. Okay. And I need to find, there was this really awesome quote. Okay. Yes. So this is the quote about how these Maya were going to be sent to Middle Earth. And it says, it was decided to send five emissaries. These should be mighty peers of Sauron, yet forgo might and clothe themselves in flesh as they were intended to help men and elves unite against Sauron. The wizards were forbidden from matching the dark lord in power and fear or trying to dominate the free people.

So we get the sense- I

wonder if it's like, oh sorry, finish your thought. No, go ahead. Go ahead. Yeah. Well, I think that's really interesting. Were they literally limited in power? Like they had their Maya powers, but then were kind of like blocked in that? Or was it more the fact that if they revealed themselves in their full glory, the people of like men and like other peoples wouldn't, they couldn't help but fall out their feet and give them a kind of dominion and power that like would turn into a Sauron light power. Do you know what I mean?

Yeah. I can't tell whether that means they literally had less power because they were constrained in some way or if it meant don't reveal yourself, keep it a hidden, et cetera.

I think clothing themselves in flesh is kind of like no one will be able to tell your power from the outside. But then I think they were saying that your forbidden makes it feel almost more like a choice because we know Sauron on down the road eventually does try to dominate and just try to use fear. But then there is a key component where he's doing it with power, but at a certain point, but it's not the full power.

It's not the full power of a Sauron. And breaks his staff and you get the sense of like you have been dismantled, right? Like your power is now diminished. Yeah, it seems like special Sauron on that when he does flip, when he's like, oh, it's time for me to be evil. If he had access to all of his power, you would think that he would become another Sauron, like equal to Sauron.

But I don't get the impression that he is equal to Sauron. And it seems like maybe he's being constrained by the flesh he was put into. And hasn't broken out of it yet. Maybe later, if he had succeeded later, he would break out of it.

And maybe that's why he was cocky enough, right? Because previously, before I knew he was a Maya, I was always confused about why he thought he was a match for a Sauron. He's like, yes, the two towers, the tower of Isindar and the tower of, I'm gonna forget the name, what is it? Baradur, right? Baradur, yeah. Yes, you draw Baradur and Isindar. And I remember always thinking, what? Sarabhan, don't be ridiculous.

How you put yourself on that level, yeah. Yeah, how are you doing this? You're not on his level, but he is. And maybe it's just a matter of with time, he would have broken out of whatever barrier or chains had kept him.

Yeah, yeah. And then he would have been equal to Sauron. Yeah, and I think this is an excellent time to now kind of dig into his arc, because we know he's here, he set up this, he set up this guild, and we're kind of sensing this like, he wants to be number one, you know, kind of this alpha energy, right? And so what I think is fascinating is so, he starts doing research, he starts digging into the history of Sauron, he starts digging into the history of the rings, he starts really starting to educate himself. And it says that he went to those, those deep places in Gondor that we see Gandalf doing in the movies, and he read, he read about history. And this is what I thought was fascinating, is he found record of the Palantirs, the Seerballs. And it was said that there was one lost in like a really old tower in the Northern Kingdom, right? And so this kingdom that- Can I ask who made the Palantirs? Oh, the Palantirs are from Numenor. They're like old magic. Let me look at this.

All right, that's fine. That's good enough for me. You can make the Palantirs. You can make the Palantirs. You can make the Palantirs. So it would have happened- It would have happened Numenorean magic. Yeah, it would have happened before the Astari came down, et cetera.

Wow, actually. So the elves, the Noldor made them. Okay. The Noldor made them, of course they did.

They make everything beautiful and evil, except for Sauron. And so yeah, the Noldor made them. And then I think the Numenoreans had them for some reason, because that's a big part of their downfall, as well as so these Seerballs. Okay.

Well, I'm excited to hear about that. So we're going to probably hear about them soon in the Silmarillion.

Yeah, well, maybe if we go into the appendix with the fall of Numenor, I think we might. Oh, we might have to.

All right. So Sauronmon hears of one.

And he thinks I must have it for myself. He's doing this research, he's doing this strategy, and he thinks, oh, this is a magic, or this is something that I haven't heard, or I haven't seen before, right? And you almost get this sense of like, as someone who is apprentice to Ale, he has an appreciation for craftsmanship.

You know what I mean? Like he has an appreciation for the rings. He has an appreciation for the palanthiers. He's able to look at these magical things that people have created, even though they're, you can see Pasifat that they've been twisted.

And wow, look at the craftsmanship here. Yeah.

And he's like, he's, he's alert by these magical things, right? And so he, he goes to guess who owns this tower? Because I'm picturing this tower as being like one of those old forgotten towers of Arnor, right?

The Northern Kingdom that fell. So guess who owns this tower currently? It's a king of Rohan. And so he goes and he, he bows in front of the king of Rohan and he's like, oh, king, you know, and he goes through all of this stuff and he's like, I would love to be a neighbor, maybe like offer some protection to you, do all of this stuff. And the king says, yeah, sure, you are fine to move into the tower of Isengard. And so that's how Soruman gets his home base. And that's how, that's how we see him when the movies come. Is he's moved into this old fortress that was on the edge of the kingdom of Rohan. And he had already set up.

Wow, Rohan was so much bitter. Well, maybe my sense of the still is not correct.

I think it was like Rohan here, here's the, here's the old tower and Arnor was like way up here. And so it was like a very diminished, it was like bordering kind of in these wastelands. You get the sense since Arnor wasn't there anymore. And so Rohan was kind of like, sure, you can move into the empty tower. Like nobody's, nobody's there. But it just, I thought this was so important because it makes the betrayal of like having a warm tongue of Rohan specifically sitting on the stairs of Rohan when he said, I'm going to be a neighbor. I'm going to be here to protect you.

I'm going to be doing all these things for you. When they literally said, yes, come, come be near us. Yeah.

Deep betrayal. And so this was generations before he had in, but still, of course, but still it's the same people. Yeah.

We know what's going on here. He goes in, the tower is all dilapidated. He finds the Palantir and you get the sense that it's kind of this going beyond the mark almost to this desire, this curiosity of like seeing into the future and other places and all these things that he gets starting to see more about so on and starting to get a little bit seduced. Yeah. So it's like ostensibly part of research.

Yeah. Yeah. But research. Yeah. So at this point, the Palantirs are known to be corrupt as he already thinking to himself, I can use this even though no one else can. Or is that kind of like a fact lost to time? Do you think?

You know, I think what's fascinating is I don't know if the Palantirs themselves are known to be corrupt, but they're not known to be accurate.

So they're like almost like an unsecured line of communications.

It's like this, like getting messages and dreams is the way I'm thinking of it, where you wake up and you're like, what did that mean? But also, and this is something they mentioned in the movie, you don't know who has the other ones. Right.

And so if you, yeah, so basically anyone who has the other one could look at you and vice versa.

And you get in cycles of communication. And so we understand that Soran actually had a Palantir, right? And so Soran had a Palantir, Soramon had a Palantir, and then Gassu Wells had a Palantir, Freakin' Denethor had a Palantir.

True, true, true, I forgot. And so that's why he's like, you know, he drives them all crazy and they all get seduced because they're seeing these things in the Palantir. Maybe because Soran has one. Exactly. So Soran has one, he's putting out all these visions, these weird, I don't know, voodoo, voodoo.

Yeah, who knows what he's putting in there.

And it just, you get the sense, like this is kind of the beginning of the end for Soramon, where he gets this Palantir and he just, his brain starts to rot.

He gets his Palantir fairly early on.

Yeah, he gets his Palantir fairly early on. And you get the sense, like it's not all at once, right? They're still doing all of this stuff to defend against Soran. But then what starts happening is they actively start looking for the ring, because it's starting to, like there's more and more shadows creeping up. They're like, was the ring thrown into the sea?

We actually don't know. And so Soramon starts doing his own search for the ring. And it's at that point, we're getting the impression this is before Lord of the Rings. I would say maybe around Hobbit times, we're getting the sense that Soramon has like decided, if I find this ring, I might not be turning it over or destroying it the way I thought I would. He gets to the point where he's like, actually, if I find this ring, I think there might be something that I want to do with it. And you think he would be keeping it for himself at that point? I think so at this point, where he's like, I'm intrigued by this ring.

When he has the Uruk'ai and he's got like Mary and Pippin and he thinks he has the ring, do you think Soramon was taking the ring for himself in that moment too? Or was he supposed to convey it to Soran? I don't know. I think what he have conveyed it to Soran is, I guess, the real question.

I think he would have told Soran that he would have conveyed it to him. Yes, exactly. I don't know if he would have in the end. Interesting. Yeah, I don't know if he would have in the end, I'm not sure. Because I think that's a key way in his head, he'd be like, I have Soran under control. Yeah, you'd be attacking him. But really, it's like the Palantir where you're just letting Soran in in another way. Yeah.

So nobody suspects that he's being all sneaky? I don't think anyone suspects. Because it sounds like Gandalf doesn't have any knowledge that he even has a Palantir until he goes there and is shown. Yeah. So maybe nobody else knows his rumor that the Palantir was there.

He's keeping it a secret. He's keeping it a secret because it sounds like it's ill advised. Like you don't really know. Yes. The Palantir magic is kind of iffy.

Yes, and he knows that people will question him about it, essentially. Okay. So he knows it's sketchy enough to keep Seedra and he does.

Yeah, he does. And then this is what is so interesting is when Gandalf goes to see Soran on and he says, the ring's been under our noses all these years. And he's like, you idiot, like your love for the Halflings leaf like has blinded you. It's because Soromon has been looking for this ring. At this point, Soromon has been looking for this ring for years.

Oh, and he's been looking for much longer than anyone else. And he's been looking for much longer.

Devastating. And so he's like, you idiot.

That must have been hard for him that Darryl Ford is the one who fell on it.

But honestly, like it's what's amazing. So he's like you idiot. But what's amazing is like by Gandalf not knowing he actually was protecting it for longer. Yeah. From someone who they thought was going to be an ally. Yeah. Interesting.

So, okay. So that's kind of the previous arc of Soromon that we don't see when he shows up on the screen in the movies or in the books from there. We kind of know he goes full on full on Soran assistant. And he, like I said before, I am very impressed with him. I feel like he is kind of the main body of the arc. Like all of movie two, Helms Deep, all this stuff is really showcasing him and what he can do. But I think what's interesting and this ties into our beginning part is you do see him as he gets more drawn into Soran, almost like losing the power that he had as this wizard of the highest order. Yeah.

And do you mean that like when Gandalf breaks his staff, that's one step of that? And then he slips lower and lower after that? I think we talked about. When we see him like in the Shire, it's like, you know, he's a bad guy, but he's just one man at that point.

He's no magic, exactly. And I think what's so fascinating is his robe gets dingier and digier the more that he does. And then Gandalf comes back glorious in this new, and I think what this means when Gandalf comes back in his new robes is the Valor have essentially stripped him of his responsibility. And they're saying, you're done with your job. We fired you. This is the new guy in charge.

Does he lose his magic when his staff is broken?

We get the impression that his magic is basically gone.

I think what his staff is. Yeah, that's the impression I got too. Yeah. For whatever reason. But what's weird or interesting about it, and maybe this goes into that quote where you're saying like, are they robed in flesh as in they're limited? Or is it like, because technically, so he, we know that he goes into the Shire is like basically like a work lord, overlord of the Shire for a few years. And then at the end of the day, Grima stabs him and it says like he dies. But because he is a Maya spirit, which is like this eternal thing, he's not dead. Like it's like Soran spirit where it's just there. But the thing is, it says he's not sure about going to the Hall of Mando's

because of the life that he's lived in. So it's just kind of his spirit just kind of wandering. Wanders around. Kind of like ghosty vibes is what I was gathering.

The not sure about going to the Hall of Mando's. That's very funny to me. Yeah, I'm not sure I'm going to get to your section. I'm just going until Mando's cools down.

Yeah, just like hang around here. And so I think it's fascinating because he's stripped of his power in a sense where you don't feel like he can use magic. But at the same time like he's a Maya, he still has stuff going on. So I don't know. Those are kind of like the main arc and some of the stuff that I feel like I was able to find out about Soran. And what an interesting character.

Yeah, it is fun to see. Or Soromon, sorry. He keeps saying Soromon. It is fun to see that Soromon was the one corrupted. Yeah. It's a good arc just like in terms of like tension that it sets up in the plot. It's like, oh, you know, one of our special forces wizards has betrayed us. And it is fun to have it be the head of the order, of course. But I feel like even with the little that we know, it was seated. It's like, OK, well, he volunteered.

But Mando's bit dandalf. And like you can try to you can extrapolate and see like the seeds of jealousy and like the interest that he has in going down is just a little bit too interested. So it's fun to see that.

I thought it was wild that he was like once he found like his interest in these magical creations, finding out about the Palantir, seeking it out, getting the tower and the Palantir by way of stratagem and kind of secrecy, right? Saying like, would you let me?

Also, what is up with Aalyn? How everyone who's into smithing is like secretly evil. Does Tolkien have something to say?

Everyone who creates things of beauty. And I wonder if it's like you get so caught up in your own creations, you sense of something greater. I don't know.

Or like there's a level of there is a there is an amount of power in the act of creation. And maybe that's where you start getting a taste for it. I don't know. It's just it is remarkable how bad Owl is luck is in terms of his apprentices. It's wild. It's wild. But wait a second. Sorry. Saruman was also underneath Owl. Oh, sorry. Saruman was under Owl. Saruman was also under Owl.

Yeah. Soran was also a Maya under Owl. Okay. So they knew each other. That's the see I wrote that down. I was like, how well did they know each other? I bet they knew each other well. I bet they at least knew of each other, right?

Like even if they weren't working together, so dramatic if they knew each other well and they were like good friends, you know?

Well, because Soran went off pretty early on. He went off after Morgoth like in the early days.

When they have like an eternity, you know, with every Louvatar with all their seeming, they were probably standing by next to each other in the choir. Yeah.

But then but then it's like, okay, it's like that thing where you know someone in middle school and then they go off to high school or they go off to college and you hear crazy things about them. Just from a distance. That's been the last like couple of ages, right? Where it's like, oh, I know that guy. He seemed nice. And then it goes, they go off and it's like, oh.

So I didn't know who to start. I revoke my previous. Yeah. And so I wonder if that's kind of that's kind of the impression I'm getting where it's like they knew each other, but then Soran went off so early on. It's been ages since Soran was really talked or like. But it just makes me wonder like how much is there something in there where it's like Saruman was thinking. Oh yeah, I remember Saruan like I could get him back or I could defeat him. I could be the one to bring him down. Like there does still feel like maybe there's some kind of self centeredness in that.

I love that because it specifically says that Gandalf was like scared of Soran. Or he was like, I don't know. I don't know about this guy.

But I wonder if Soran was on the same level. Because they were on the same level. I wonder if Soran was like, who this guy? I could take him. I wonder. So maybe part of that is like I could do one better. Yeah.

A little bit of competition among the apprentice. Poor Owlay. Yeah. I feel like he's probably like.

I hope people give him a hard time for all these people. Yeah. Insane. Nietta's probably saying things like, yeah, I've never had one of my apprentices don't often do. I know.

It's like you are banned from ever recommending your apprentices to anything. Yes.

Oh man. That's interesting. So we don't know a ton. We know the origin. That theme with the tower is very interesting to me. Yeah.

I think it's so interesting. Like his interest in the Palantir and then how that spirals. From the beginning. Into the ring. And then like you can see, like you said, you can see the seeds. You can see the seeds of what was happening there. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. Super fascinating. And then let's see. I wanted to talk a little bit about Christopher Lee because I love him.

I only have one comment on Saruman. Yes, tell me. What Tolton shouldn't have done. I feel like this is a rule in books and I could be wrong, but you're really not supposed to make your like characters have similar names. And I know that Saruman versus Saron is a problem for a lot of people.

Oh, I've said Saron multiple times when I meant Saruman in this episode. So excuse me.

It does make me laugh a little bit because you run into this issue with Will Time, which has like 600 characters. And so there's like a million different characters that all start with the same letter. But in general, when you're crashing a book, you're really supposed to start with, if you have major characters, the goal is to kind of give each one a different starting letter at least because some people they read and they just like, they just flash past names. So it's like, oh, yeah, the name that starts with a, oh, yeah, the name that starts with B, this character, you know. And so if you get to that start with S, both N with N, both have generally the same kind of, it's just funny.

Bowels in the middle. Yeah, it's just funny. I know, I know. So we have to make do with what we're given, but I would not have chosen to name him Saruman. Yeah, but you know, there's probably some kind of like linguistic reason for it.

He had another name. His, his original Maya name was Kurumo. Kurumo. And it translates to like Skilled Man or Cunning One, which I think is really interesting because Skilled as in like with Owl-A, Cunning as in, and this makes me think about his servant Warm Tongue. It said that Saruman, if you got in a room with him, could almost convince you of anything, right? Like so persuasive.

And maybe she talks some of that to Warm Tongue, kind of conveyed some of that to him. Yeah.

And I just think that's so interesting when we think about how Rohan was seduced and it was by words. It was by this kind of like slow seduction over and maybe it could be even generations of kings, kind of assuming that Saruman was in their best interest or something that was not necessarily true. But I thought that was interesting. Yeah.

And we've talked before about comparing Malian from the Suma-Raelian to like the elves around her and how like she's way above their level and then the elves are way above the level of men, etc., etc. So it is cool to think actually of Warm Tongue as like his tutor being a Maya.

Yeah, it's insane. And I wonder like maybe some some aspect of the Saruman magic may have wrapped off on him. It does say he has like that silver tongue and he has magic on his in his words. But it does help me understand why Warm Tongue was so competent at what he was doing. If he was taught by Saruman who is a Maya, as opposed to just, you know, this nebulous wizard thing that we don't really know what it is.

And I also love that he's talking that he is an apprentice of Alley because think of everything he creates. We know Alley was interested in creating the dwarves and he creates a whole new species.

Oh, he's so into the orcs. The orci. It makes sense to me that he created bombs. Yeah, it's true. Like when we're seeing this explosive and he's using that at Helms Deep, like it makes sense to me that he industrialized Isengard. Like all of these creations make sense in the context of like who he is and what he's studying. Of who he is in his past. Yeah. Yeah. Dane, Alley, your people are out of control.

You need to make some people who want to make something good. Oh my goodness. That's cool. Yeah, I think he's a fascinating character. I really, really like him. He has kind of like a weird ending, but it's such an epic, I don't know, such an interesting person. And then you were going to say something about the actor then. Yeah, I love Christopher Lee.

I have probably told these stories before, but I just think he's so interesting. He loved Lord of the Rings. He was a real Lord of the Rings Tolkien fan and he was one of the oldest, if not the oldest on the set. And so he had actually met Tolkien and he had gotten written consent via letter to play Gandalf if there was ever a movie written. So Tolkien said, sure, you can play Gandalf.

Was he disappointed when he was tasked with Sarabal?

That's interesting. You know, I think he was originally going for Gandalf, but at that point he was the oldest person in the cast and they said, we need Gandalf to be riding horses. We need Gandalf to be doing these fight scenes.

And it sounds like I didn't realize this because Christopher Lee looks so good, but it sounds like his body at the time would not have been able to handle that type of filming. Right. Right, that makes sense.

So he kind of accepted this at all. He probably had his pick of Rolsen. It's just a matter of he couldn't do the role of Gandalf, therefore.

It sounded like it probably would have been too active for him at his age, which is crazy because he looks amazing. I think he does such a great job. Interesting. And then also I love the story up. So he also, it sounds like was a secret agent or any one of the worst, the world worst.

I think he did tell me this one. He's like weirdly, weirdly on top of how to kill a man. Isn't that what you said?

Yeah. I think it was the scene where it's like Wormtug stabs him or something and someone else was like showing him how they wanted it to do to him to do it. And he was like, that's not how a man stabs when he stab him in the back. And it was like, oh, oh dang. Uncomfortable moment on set. Uncomfortable moment by Christopher Lee. That's awesome. Just really, just really fun. Yeah, I really love that. But yeah, that is all I had on Saruman. Epic, epic person.

I mean, let him be a warning to people who research and go down a Wikipedia rabbit holes. This is what will happen. It will lead you to a Palantir and then to certain death. I know, exactly.

The main thing I've decided is Palantirs are a big no-no. I think that is the doom.

They're the doom. Well, we will have to read some more about them then. Yeah, maybe we do die. We need to read about either that or as we go through the fall of Numenor, we'll deep an eye out on them and see what happens there.

Yeah, I love that. Yeah, that sounds great. Okay, till next time, guys. Sounds good.

Talk to you later.