Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia.

Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, beatalons, and lafflons.

We are excited to have you as a new friend on this journey with us. Welcome to Speak Friend and Enter a Lord of the Rings podcast. Hi guys, this is Stephanie and I'm joined with my lovely co-host Lydia and we are really excited about today's episode. We are going to be doing a deep dive on one of the most intimidating creatures in Tolkien's world, which is coolest and coolest. And I would say, you know, argued about maybe the most is a couple of hot topics. We're going to be talking about Balrogs, which is super fun. I'm trying to think about how to start. I think maybe we need to start with an epic quote from the Somerillian on Balrogs and then we can kind of dig into it.

Yeah, I've got it here if you want me to read it. Yeah, go ahead. All right. Their hearts were a fire, but they were cloaked in darkness and terror went before them. They had whips of flame Balrogs. They were named. So did.

Super epic. And I think that's like from chapter three. I also found another quote about Balrogs from later in the Somerillian. And I think this kind of speaks to, I thought we could talk about the origin of them first and then kind of dig into their unique traits. But so this quote, it says, Of the my art, many were drawn to Melchor Splendor in the days of his greatness and remained in that allegiance down into his darkness and others he corrupted afterwards to his service with lies and treacherous gifts.

Dreadful among these spirits were, and here's the fancy name for Balrogs, Valorok, Rockcar, Valorok car, the scourges of fire that in Middle Earth were called the Balrogs, demons of terror.

So a lot to unpack there. There are two interesting things out of that one. Sarron did not get his idea for treacherous just from nowhere to it is we've kind of talked about this in various episodes where it's like, here you have men, they have this level of power here, you have elves who have way more power than men. And then we see that the my art just like well above the power levels of an elf. Yeah. And then you get a Valor's level of power. So it's just incredible like the level of power that a Balrog has is just off the charts. Yeah.

And I think it's interesting. So kind of digging into the origin of this, it talks about how obviously Balrogs were originally Meyer, which were there during the great song of creation. And we talked about how, you know, Melkor was there during the song too. And he had a couple of moments where he tried to go off on his own and create something kind of with his own tune. And so there's some speculation, you know, they're saying the the and there were a couple of Meyer who joined into his song, who were kind of swayed by his song. And so they're saying they're thinking that maybe some of those Meyer who joined into his original song could potentially have been the

Meyer spirits that were pulled into becoming Valor's down the road once they came down to earth or Arda. And we're starting to kind of work for the Valar and have that moment away from Eru on their own.

It's also really interesting that they specifically say they were drawn to his splendor when he was splendorous. Yeah. And they kept with him when he fell into darkness. Yeah. Because there's gotta be a like a boiling of the frog going on here. It's really interesting.

I mean, the principle obviously is don't be boiled. Like check in, make sure you're not like check in with where you're at. Don't assume that what you that decision that you made previously is going to stay correct. Yeah. Well, it was wrong from the beginning, but it's interesting to think, wow, did they did they don't maybe really know what they were signing on for at the time?

But by the time they got to the I'm ready to be a Balorad, it didn't matter because they were so changed from their original being so corrupted, so different that like they might as well be different people, it seems. Yeah.

Well, and the timing of this is interesting too. Because it's like, okay, they might have been some of the spirits that joined into his discord in the beginning. And then so I wonder what that means because we talked about Milkor kind of having this pride of wanting to create but wanting to create for his own glory, right?

And I wonder if the other spirits who were joining in, if they could kind of sense that, I wonder why they didn't do their own song if that was the case, like what drew them to his song? I don't know. Yeah.

Yeah. And I think there's some level of like, there are followers and there are leaders. Like there are people who are willing to instigate and then there are people who once it's instigated, like, like, pianos or jackals.

Yeah. And it's a it's a pack thing. Yeah. Oh, I like that thing. I see it. I feel that it's different there. Yeah. I'm going to be second in command with this faction as opposed to, you know, the 499th Maya. There's got to be some level of ambition potentially. Yeah.

I like that. And so we think that there were probably some of those Maya that were the spirits that ultimately became the Vowrags. But then they come down to earth, they're helping the Valar create the world. And we know that Milkor's up to no good.

He's trying to from the beginning, he's trying to delay things, he's trying to destroy things. And I think that's kind of, you know, that pre coming down to earth and then this beginning of the earth time is kind of that time when he's like in his splendor, he's super wily.

He's like powerful. He's like talking to people. So he's super wily, he's up to no good, but he still has the facade of glory. Right. Right. And so actually that made me laugh because I was just thinking, you know, those means where it's like, how it started. Yeah.

How it's going. You know, you put like an angel in the first picture and a demon ball rod in the second. Unfortunately, the ball rod looks so cool. You don't know if this is bad. I know.

It's so disparate. Like, how did you get there?

I know. Yeah. And so it sounds like kind of this was his wooing period. And then they kind of sit, the Valar, you know, they're kind of like, go away. You're not helping. And then he comes back, Melkor comes back and he destroys the lamps. Right. And that seems to be like, there was a development of the spirits following him, buying in, kind of going through this. And this is the point of no return.

But now we don't go back.

Exactly. This is the rubicon. He knocks over the lamps and then he goes off into Middle Earth and, you know, kind of dwells and creates a tomb. No. And that seems to be the spot where, you know, the Balrogs, whatever their maybe somewhat hidden state was before. I don't know if they were still trying to play Dual Allegiance or if they had

gone off and were with him. I wonder if like, if like, underneath their like angel dies, they were already like this and it's just like, okay, now we cast off the stints of our former selves and we are the scenes.

Yeah, maybe they had already gone off with him before. And so it wasn't a big moment. But this is when he starts gathering people, including the Maya that have decided to become Balrogs. And that's kind of in of Tomb No. And that's kind of, I think like their, their pinnacle moment of spending time with Melkor and kind of he starts potentially developing all of these other creatures, one of them potentially dragons, right? Which we remember has that idea. Rumor has it.

And Stephanie keeps on saying this just well like Melkor.

I know, dragons are so epic. And, you know, it's debatable there too, if that was ultimately a Maya spirit or if it's with something else that you completely create, you know, bread or changed.

It is kind of fun to think about it because I don't necessarily have like a strong vision for what Melkor looks like, right? Yeah. You know, in my mind, he's just this amorphous blackness. I have some idea for Sauron, right?

Because we have movies and stuff. And maybe, yeah. Point is, if I'm an evil person and I see on my side Balrogs and dragons, I'm feeling pretty confident. Yeah, feeling pretty, pretty invigorated, ready to go fight. Like, it just seems that they got a lot of great stuff going for them at this stage. Like a lot of good stuff. Which makes me wonder why we don't hear the Valar inventing new creatures at this point.

I know. And part of me wonders if it's like kind of the respect for Eru's creations. Well, because they do make like Yavanna, but she does it very much the approval method she asked for the ends.

And then, you know, we talked about the Alley story and the Eagles. And so I want, I feel like Melkor is just like, I'm going to create what I'm going to create. You can't tell me no and kind of does whatever he wants compared to almost like a much more thoughtful process.

So the unregulated process is regulated produces abominations. And yet they're useful in combat. Cool.

Yeah. And so I guess kind of trying to finish up a little bit of the timeline and we can talk more about the individual characteristics. But so then they're in the tomb, no sounds like they're rocking, they're developing their living life, building that out. And then we talked about how the Valar come down because the elves have been created, right? And they are once they discover that they're on the warpath and they basically destroy a tomb, no, right? They come for it.

One minute you're living life high. The next day angels have smitten you.

Yeah, exactly. You're smitten. But they, and they talk about this in the similean too, they didn't look into all of the itty bitty little hiding places. And so the Balarogs, even though Morgoth has been conquered and they dragged him off with the special chain made by Aulae, they have been, they go off and they hide and they wait.

And it was said that they waited in Angbad, which was kind of the fortress that Sauron, the number two was in charge of. So they kind of slink off. And they're, they're waiting for a special moment, which ultimately comes when Morgoth comes back with the Similes after he escapes. And so then after that, they have a long history of battles. They go to battle with the elves. They go to battle against the Valar. They go, they're, they're in a lot of stuff. But it's interesting that they only seem to really be called upon when it comes to Morgoth. So, Oh, are they like his personal praetorian guard?

I don't know, but it's like, they're very sensitive. So like when the Valar came and they dragged Morgoth off, they went into hiding. I don't think you really have that bench story. It's like, it's almost like a hibernation.

So it's not like they went to Sauron and said, and now you're a new master.

We're going to develop something new. That's kind of interesting because actually Sauron and the Balarogs are of equivalent Maya-ness. Maya-ness. And they have the same OG leader, right? Yeah.

So that is interesting. I guess I'd consider them subservient, but that's not necessarily true in any real way.

Yeah. And that's an interesting discussion that we can talk about. Like, why did they become what they are compared to other Maya choosing to be something different?

Yeah. And I wonder how much of it is a difference in their natures versus a difference in how they want their natures to be perceived. And their choices. Yeah. Exactly. So like the Balarogs at this point are, we know we're the baddies. They know we're the baddies.

We know we're the baddies. Let's stop pretending. Let's look cool. Let's dress up. Let's do this. Whereas Sauron is like, they know I'm the baddie, but if I pretend my name is Joe, I can show up to the party.

He's kind of almost in between. Yeah. And likes his lovely state. Yeah.

And I don't know if that means like his, his, uh, descendant to evil is less than theirs. I doubt that personally. He seems to want to hide it more, which is interesting.

Yeah. And be more deceptive. He felt the need, but why does he bother? What's the point? Well, I think there's a decent amount like sneakiness. Sneakiness gets him far.

He does like to be sneaky. But I guess he had to be, I guess we don't know the full extent of disguised self in the Lord of the Rings universe, right?

So we don't know if he goes so far as to be a Balarog in his day to day, would Sauron ever be able to put on a pretty face that did those rings away? We don't know. And so maybe that's part of it.

So this I think actually goes into, so, okay, quickly to wrap up. But yeah, what I think is interesting is they seem to go into like hibernation states when Melkor is not there. But then when Melkor comes back with a Simmelrillion, there's a quote, I don't know if I can find it, but they talk about, cause he escapes with a Simmelrillion mainly because he had Angoliant, that mother spider, you know what I mean? And she was a bad A and he escapes with her. And that's how he's kind of able to pull off this heist and escape. But then Angoliant turns on him, right? And the Balarogs fight her off. And so they hear him, they hear him coming back to the fortress, Atumno, and they come out of whatever hiding or situation they were in and they fight her off.

And so there's this very like it's, and then you can see obviously the Balarog and Lord of the Rings also in the kind of like this strange hibernation state for centuries until it was awakened. And so I feel like there's this strange connection of like, they're not just off, I don't know, like villages on fire.

They're not here to cause trouble. They are here to do it feels very much here.

Yeah. It's strange. Interesting. Slightly, slightly on the side. Angoliant is a fabulous name. She lob is a fabulous name. And every time I see those names, I think, wow, that is such a good name. If only there was some pet, I could name that, but I've never done it like torrential.

I just think it's the perfect name, but it's only perfect for spiders. And I will never, ever in my life have a pet spider.

So what else could you name? What else could you name on Gold? Nothing.

It has to be a horrible nasty creature.

I don't know. Maybe you could name your cat on goalie and call him goalie or something. Goalie. I don't know.

I love the idea. That's a thought I keep on having every time I see that name. Okay. So this, I wanted to dig into some things I found online about kind of the state of bow rocks because we talked about their physical state, which I'll just do a quick description. But so they took the form of demons with hearts of fire and whips of flame, but they're also talked about as like being like encased kind of in shadow. So you get this like shadow fire monster portrayal, right? And so we're wondering why is that there? Can they go back and forth? Why is that the way they look?

Right? And something that I found online that I thought was interesting is so in the complete Tolkien companion, we have a quote that says, in their origins, as a part of the thought of a Louvitar, these were myer of the following or service of Melkor, the mightiest of the Ainor, they had the form of spirits of fire. At the beginning of days, they took service and were quickly corrupted, right? And as demonic beings of great size, they're a fire and shrouded who bore as their principal weapon a whip of many thongs. But what's interesting is so people kind of pulled out the spirits of fire and they reference another quote about another creature, Abmyah, who is the guide of the sun, Arian. And it said, and she was chosen because she had not feared the heats of Lorlin and was unhurt by them. Being from the beginning, a spirit of fire who Melkor had not deceived nor drawn to his service. So like the last of them who were not turned into Balrogs.

And so what I was realizing as I was kind of reading these different quotes and seeing what people were pulling out is I always thought Balrogs were just, you know, General Maya. And then they were like, wouldn't it be cool if I looked like this, right?

Yes. And now it's more like you had a proclivity for fire in the beginning. You were some kind of fiery spirit and now you've been enrobed in shadow.

And so it makes me think about, because we talked about Astari, the wizards, and we were like, do they, you know, come down as Astari? Like, do certain Maya have certain powers for different things? Like, it makes me think that when we're thinking about the Einer and that original host that Eru created, I think they had their own personalities, proclivities, powers.

There's like an individuality to them. The individualities, they weren't just all the same with the same generic powers and skills. It sounds like- Which makes sense because we're thinking of this as almost like an orchestra. Yeah. We have this symphony that Eru Eluvatar is creating and Melchor took the entire viola section except for one.

And so basically, yeah, what I'm pulling out from all of this is I think they had this OG skill or

it just interests some context to the they have hearts of fire. Because that could be like a tiny shred of their original good purpose. Who

they originally were, their original, their powers. Yeah, I like that. That's kind of my little quote or takeaway about like, why is Sauron different than a Balrog? And they're both Maya, they're both following the same leader, right? Like maybe there was something in their OG makeup and OG powers that makes them different.

That kind of beds the question of what is Sauron and or Melchor's original, like we call the Balrogs or the proto-Balrogs spirits of fire. So Sauron is what like the spirit of charisma. Like he's just really good with people and trickery and

it's just interesting to think of them being

on that kind of like personable level. Because Dandolph is like definitely elevated on a very personable level. Saruman also interests well with people and like maybe there were spirits of flame and fire who were just like, they're just a little bit too autistic to send down as like an Astari, you know what I mean? Like they're like, don't know how to interact with men, won't figure out the elves, won't figure out the dwarves. Like you might have to be savvy on like a certain social level to be elevated to like Astari. I don't know, it's just an interesting idea.

Well, because then look at Radicast, like Radicast is this love fan.

She is not that level.

So I don't know what it is, right? Like they don't go around and say, okay, all of the Maya are one of these three types of spirits, right? And so you have like, it sounds like there's a wide variety.

Which is very interesting because if this were fantasy today, we would know about the 155 different types of Maya. We would know that for them. It would be and I'm not totally a dint like hard fantasy.

I sound like I am because I sort of am, but like, I'm not totally a dint. Just look at all this dumb speculation we have to do here because he never told us. I know.

And we talked about this so much place to wonder.

It's fun to have the wondering and to be able to discuss theories and ideas. And I think that's honestly what keeps a little bit of the interest of fans over the years is those empty pockets. Okay, so we kind of know a little bit about their backstory, what they looked like, maybe why

they looked the way that they did with their spirit makeup.

But what's interesting is Tolkien actually had like different ideas of how many of these bowel rogues were going to be in.

I think you mentioned this. So it's something like in the beginning he said there are hundreds and then later he realized, wait, these are OP. I really need to cut it back.

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think there is like a book of lost tales that he originally was kind of writing and he mentions like we've been talking a little bit about like the Noldor or elves and all the elves battles with El Kor and how that's going to go down. And so they were talking about, you know, them kind of fighting them and there being, you know, hundreds and being felled by the elves, right?

There's a quote that's like thus five fell before Taurus great axe, right? Like there was a whole bunch of stuff. But then his son Christopher later said that as the legendarium kind of his Tolkien kept writing thinking about the background became more, you know, internally consistent and bowel rogues became more formidable and kind of like terrible.

More formidable, more limited. Yeah, the number and Tolkien's mind of like how many there were was reduced so that in the end he was stating, and this is a little note from Christopher, he said, Tolkien stated that there are probably at most seven bowel rogues.

Very interesting. I have a couple thoughts

on that because does that imply that Tolkien changes mind on how many Maya followed Melkor in the BDNC? Yeah, I think that does. You think so? Okay. Yeah, maybe he just thought it was too pessimistic. Because I don't know that we're given like a number. We're not told there are 100,000, I know, and 58,000 went with Melkor, right? We're not told the majority went with Melkor.

Maybe he thought that the implication was, oh my gosh, they've got hundreds of bowel rogues. Like maybe he thought the implication was that the majority went with Melkor. You know, I think for me, it did make me think like, oh man, like he was imagining a lot of people going with Melkor. Like I kind of thought and the like Melkor is just kind of like sneakily whispering to like a handful of people.

Whereas it makes it sound like this is like a proper schism where a huge part left.

And I think that might stay consistent. I don't know if that necessarily changed in his mind as he kept writing, maybe it did. But I think the thought of like who bowel rogues were and their powers, kind of and kind of how terrible they grew, I think is what changed that specific number. How could could actually survive this number? Yeah, like how many elves are actually needed to fell this many bowel rogues or like, you know, as he was thinking about that process.

Being the man he is, he probably went and calculated out the generations and knew the elves by names. And he realized we're 20 generations off, we've got to fix the timeline.

Different number. But basically for me, that so I don't know that adds so much gravitas. I feel like to Lord of the Rings and Gandalf killing a bowel rogue, because they talk about then once he gets to the point where he kind of has this smaller number and he's like, drawing out the history. He has kind of this main Balrog that gets felled by an elf in those battles.

Kind of the Somerian time period. And then he has this other Balrog, which is mentioned, which is Durin's Bane, right? Right. Which is the one that's killed by Gandalf. And we don't have any other, that I found records of what happened to the other five Balrogs. If they were felled, if they're still in the earth somewhere.

Yeah. And so like these are very formidable. Like there's not many of them, but they don't die super easily.

It is nice. I do like that he changed the number because when you say there are seven Balrogs, something about that just feels right. Yeah. Seven is a powerful like superstitious, magical number or whatever. But it's also just like the perfect number. And then you have enough history to say like, this one fell in that age and this one was killed by Gandalf and now there's five left. Yeah. And that feels just ripe for more story. I don't know. Somewhere along the line, somebody is going to fight the next one and discover it's cool.

Something else that I think just added some gravitas and I'm trying to find the quote from the book. I don't know if I'm finding it though, but I was reading a quote. And so we talk about that Balrog specifically that Gandalf battled as Durin's Bane because it was buried deep right in the Khazadum and those mountains. And then when Durin came and was trying to rebuild this kingdom, that's when they kind of woke it up and took over.

Imagine being Durin and like trying to restore your homeland and realizing that your one speck of dirt was the place the Balrog decided to hide. How awful would that be?

And we're talking about like... Out of all the earth. I know. And we're talking about like a creature. Like I think they say this in the movies and I love the way they say it and I can't remember the exact wording, but Gandalf is like kind of like, this is a creature of kind of like time before time. Like you don't understand what you're facing here.

Yeah, I think Erdogan is trying to run off and fight it. He's like, no, that was cool.

Yeah, like this isn't just... You don't get it. And I love that Gandalf kind of refers to... Like he's like, guys, this is a different level. Like we were talking about Maya and magic and how powerful Maya can be. And maybe sometimes I don't know, we think like, oh, it's not that different from elves or from these other creatures, but there's a couple of moments where you're like, no, like this is different.

And especially the way Gandalf talks, I know he's kind of worried for like the safety of the fellowship and everyone around him, but even the way he just talks and kind of like, this is, I would have to stretch to see if I could pull out a book quote. But the way it's definitely portrayed in the movie is he feels like the underdog. The underdog. Yeah. Like he's not walking onto that bridge and saying thou shalt not pass.

He says run, right? Yeah, but he's not walking on the bridge with like pure confidence, no problem. I don't want to take care of this bow rod. We used to be soccer buddies like back in...

He's a Maya, I'm a Maya. Back in heaven. I used to beat him up all the time. Like I think it's pretty clear that within the Maya, there are different power levels and it's possible that these like spirits of fire were some of the more powerful ones, which is a really interesting thought of like, okay, so Meltor is making a play for all these people's loyalties and he's drawing away the most powerful. That would be demoralizing as somebody who didn't get drawn away to be like, oh, Senpai's gone. Oh my gosh, I know. So I always thought the implication that Gandalf is a Maya, but he's weaker than the bow rod and that it's like a great victory that he has.

Yeah, I agree that he's like, oh my gosh, I can't believe I did it.

And he doesn't really, he dies. So he dies and he's sent back. So I guess we should give him credit, but also he did definitely die. That definitely did happen.

Okay, this is something else that I think just added to the gravitas as I was researching that I thought was so interesting. So there's a quote in the Lord of the Rings Fellowship of the Ring chapter seven and Legolas talks about the bow rock. And he says, it was a bow rock of Morgoth, says Legolas, right? And it says, of all elf veins, the most deadly saved the one who sits in the dark tower. So like, we're talking about this like, oh, Durin's Bay and like it gave the doors around for his money. Freakin Legolas says of, and he calls it an elf vein. He says of basically of any creature on earth. The only thing that's more dangerous than this is Freakin's sauron.

I also, I did not know this term elf vein. I really love it because if you think about it, what's happening, Melkor, we know specifically blames the elves for everything that happens for his downfall.

So there he is in a tome no thinking to himself. How can I create monsters to harry the elves specifically? Let me call them elf vein. And it's just like this category. I feel like that's probably what the taxonomy is. It's the category of creatures created by, shoot, I keep on trying to think of him as Morgoth now, created by Melkor specifically to spite the elves. So like orcs are gonna be in there, dragons, bow rods. That's just like really interesting. Yeah.

And what I think is interesting is, so in the Hobbit, we know that smog, the dragon gets destroyed and there's a little bit of strategic thinking there from Gandalf, right? Like he's kind of like, Yeah. Maybe not the best thing to have.

Sitting on this border in this part of the territory that's gonna cause us problems in the future. Yeah.

And so my curiosity is, if that hadn't happened, and this is only a few years, only a few years before this quote is happening. Maybe 30. Is a bow rod considered more deadly to an elf than a dragon? Obviously.

Like, That's fricking dope. Would a dragon that had been numbered you on the list if he had in a diet? I don't know, I don't think all the dragons are there.

I don't think I'm... I don't know where all the dragons are, but actually that's a great point. If Gandalf had known the location of one dragon and one bow rod, he would have gone for the bow rod first. If he was thinking of adventurous thoughts, you know, he's like, Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. Oh my gosh. That's a really cool just like, justice position.

Well, and so that's what I'm curious about because dragons to be fair, they seem to interact a lot more with the outside world than bow rogsy. We kind of had this conversation of like, bow rogsy and weird, where they kind of like hibernate and wait for Melkor to come around.

And I wonder if dragons fall under elf bane or not. I don't know. Like were they created specifically for that purpose? Well, I mean, that's a faped taxonomy I made up, but perhaps they fall outside of it because you're right. They seem to have their own theme going on most of the time.

Yeah. And they have greed, they like their little horde, like they have other, what could I say? Like motivations and almost like purpose in life.

And it's kind of funny to think about like a dragon because if you were going to say, what ingredients do you need to make a dragon? You'd probably say something like a spirit of flame plus stales.

Or you know what I mean? You would think, if you think spirit of flame, you're thinking, I guess that's getting transformed into a dragon. You're wrong obviously because that turns into a bow rod. So what spirit turns into a dragon? Well, and what's, I don't know.

Is it a lesser spirit of flame? Is it a similar spirit of flame, but a different form? Right, yeah. Like I don't, that is fascinating because they talk about too. So Gandalf says like, we fought kind of like in the flames and the water on the highest, physical, to the lowest dungeon.

And I smote his ruin on the mountain top. I know. Best line, so good. And then he died.

He died. Slash epic, epic thing.

But it's interesting because you get the impression like Balrog's fire can go out, right? Cause they were talking about in the water, but they're still formidable. So like, I think they're intimidating because of their fire, right? You look at them and you think, whoa, but there's something still extremely powerful about this creature.

And it's a sternal representation of an internal power.

Yeah. Yeah, there's still something very strong about this creature that even with the fire.

It's really funny that the bow rod is rated as more dangerous or more terrible than the dragon because if you were to compare those two scenes, Gandalf versus one bow rod and then Gandalf versus one dragon.

He didn't go after smog. He wasn't like, oh yeah, let me go at him. Right? Like, let me go at him with a sword.

That's where you feel like Gandalf is in the underdog position. Cause otherwise he'd be like, oh, I can take care of this. It's only because of the desperate time that he actually did meet the bow rod in battle. But I guess like, maybe it's just because the dragon is bigger and we're more familiar with them. I would look at the, on the surface, I'd look at Gandalf versus one dragon. I'd be like, oh, that's the harder fight. That's it right there. But it's not.

But I think Gandalf was more, it's interesting. He was more scared of the bow rod than he was about this epic adventure. Cause he was like, he totally was like, okay, let's do an epic adventure. Let's get rid of the dragon.

Yeah. And I think that's how I read it too. And some of that is the fact that the Hobbit is written in such a, such a light tone. Exactly. Yeah. But I still kind of feel that way.

I feel like he was much more, it does feel more casual for Gandalf to take a little adventure to go to a dragon. And there is no, he is not looking for rumors of bow rods. He's probably avoiding them. He probably hears rumors of bow rods every day and he says to himself, let's not go there. Which is exactly what he says about Moria.

They know about Durin's Bane. Right. They know what it's down there. Right? Cause Soromon in the movie, specifically they have that voiceover where he's like, Moria, you know why you don't want to go down there. Right?

Like he's like very specifically like, you're scared.

Like he, he pokes at him. And that's really interesting because like Gandalf comes off like when Dimly suggests we should go through the mines and visit my like cousin, et cetera, et cetera. He comes off very reasonable, I feel like. And then Gandalf is like, I would not take them there if our lives depended on it.

Like he shuts them down really hard. And obviously on a rewatch, you know why. But prior to knowing what's in there, prior to meeting a bow rod, you have no concept of why Gandalf is saying this.

That is some beef I have where it's just like, just be less cryptic Gandalf. Like be like, there's a freaking fire demon.

Like we're not going down there. But maybe it's, I don't know, maybe.

But it's the scene where like you can't believe it until you see it. So like what would Dimly say? He'd be like, oh, that's just a rumor or, you know. Or like I can take it. Yeah, maybe that, Dimly would say that.

I think, yeah, it's interesting too because I think Gandalf knows, he knows that people are gone. Right? Or maybe he doesn't because he goes into the mines and he's like, yep, okay, they're all dead. Right? Like, yeah.

Like he knows things are great there. Yeah. Yeah.

I don't know. That's fascinating. I have to dig into that more. But I just thought it was really interesting it what bow rugs are are well known to the elves and they're intimidating. And I think it's interesting that it's not just a bow rod. It's like, it's a bow rock of Morgoth. Right? Like they're speaking a very old, a very old long ago evil type of creature. Right.

And it's really actually kind of interesting that Ledalus says Morgoth and not Melkor. Yeah. Was he Morgoth when he made the bell rocks?

Well, so Melkor was his OG name. Really? And then Morgoth. I had to mix up for a second there. I know I used to mix up all the time. Yeah. Yeah.

Because you got the double one. Melkor was his original. And then Morgoth is what the elves named him after the

switch rule or what the valor named him. Morgoth. I don't know. Stop. Stop Stephanie now. Don't laugh. So yeah. So Morgoth. But yeah.

So Morgoth was what he became. That makes way more sense that Ledalus would put it that way.

Yeah. But I just thought that was fascinating. Okay. I also have another topic for you that I'm very excited about. Go for it. So we need to dig into the huge debate about Peter Jackson's bell rocks and some bell rocks being displayed with wings. Oh.

I didn't know this was a huge debate but I already have an opinion.

There is huge debate because technically, right, right. Technically, there's some quotes that are in the book. I'll read them to you. Give it. Yeah. And people go back and forth on this. So it says, The context is Gandalf stands in the middle of a bridge facing the bow rock who has halted and raised its whip. The shadow of the bow rock reaches out like wings and fire comes from his nostrils. And the quote is the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings. Right. And so what they're trying to say is kind of like this. Right. Like I'm just picturing like the shadow just like going.

Like 10 girls or something and yeah.

But they say reached out like two vast wings. And so when Peter Jackson's film, if we look at little images,

you can look at this moment, right? When the challenge happens, the ball or puffs up and he like spreads his wings. It's an awesome moment.

Yeah. 10 out of 10. He straight up has kind of like these and they kind of almost look like skeletal with like fire and like some some wing moments, which honestly kind of reminds me of a dragon. We were just talking about the similarities. But what do we think about that portrayal? I read the quote to you. We get more of like the shadowy component of the wings. But how do we feel if you were to say, okay, I'm trying the right adaptation.

I'm drawing about right now. Does your bow rock have wings? Yeah. So I would say probably yes. Because I think I do think so. The image that I get from the pros is not quite wings. It's more like an inky blackness that like fills the space and maybe it has like tendrils. So I did something a little bit more disperse and amorphous. So you could portray it like that.

But I think the problem with let's just translate that into video for a second. So I have the ball rod as you see it in Jackson's. But instead of having the stelital wings, I have just like this shadow that just spreads like some on this side. Yeah, some on this side and some on this side. But it's not shaped like a wing necessarily. The problem is, is I think like the pros because they make that metaphor as like wings. I think that the visual of giving him something that looks more obviously like wings was a correct move because you're trying to adapt the pros. You're trying to insert that metaphor. Interesting. Those don't have to be real wings. He doesn't have to fly and I don't believe he does. I don't think in our video, I imagine hit me always.

Yeah. So I think that is correct. So we never see him fly. It's just that to your mind, to the eye, it looks like wings. And I often think about like,

this is kind of like the tricky thing of like higher powers. But you think about how like an angel was described in the Bible. Horrific. Horrific. Eight wings, 10,000 eyes, whatever. Oh yeah. Very intimidating.

Very gross and nasty. And like all of it is symbolic, right? The wings are to show like their power of, I can't remember.

I looked this up on time. It's like their agency or their power. The eyes are to show like they're ever watchful, etc, etc. It's all symbolic language. And to me, it feels like Tolkien is doing something very similar here where he's using symbolic language, but it's a very specific metaphor. And so if you're going to translate that to video, I think it's perfectly okay to say, he wanted this image in your mind in the prose. Let's make it an image in the video, in the film and call it good. Bull. Bull. I'm totally, I'm totally down with it. Is that a controversial opinion?

I think people, there are some people who get really like, because they're like, those are straight up wings. He didn't have wings in the book. Okay. Like they're very, they're very, um, yeah, I'm totally okay with it.

Because a lot of people have now done art of bow rugs with wings, right? And people are like, they don't have wings. So I think there's a lot of heat around that. But so I think, I think I would kind of go in between where it's like, I think that's so, there's so much power in that image of kind of like, this darkness, like when I think of wings and furling, I think of like, the size of something almost doubling. You know what I mean? Like they unfurl their wings and you think, Oh my gosh, this thing is huge.

Maybe that's what happens is like, you have this flash of where you see the wings, but then they go away. Not because they're not there anymore, but because it was just like your brain trying to interpret something that's nonsensical, something almost Cthulhu like, right? Like the brain cannot fully comprehend the input it's being given. Yeah.

And so I think for me, that's kind of what I would try to go. I don't think I would do, sorry, Peter Jackson. I love his movies. I actually love the Balrog. I don't think I would do like the

physical, it looks almost like, you would just like, you would just do like shadow. I would do, yeah, but I would do like a really strong homage of like, almost this like huge shadow and furling in a very strong shape of wings. Because I wouldn't want it to just be like this cloud of shadow poofing out behind it. Yeah, exactly. I would want it to be very structural in the way that it looked. Like as the Balrog moves, like that impression

of wings would fade because it was like, he would move through the shadow. Yeah, exactly.

That would probably go away because I think I would be totally down for that today. I would be like really awesome.

And he's like, almost like, you know, in those movies where you were like trying to get a size of something and you see

something and then it's like rising above you and then all of a sudden like this shadow just like creeps out behind his back and maybe even beats in front of him, like the wings beat in front of him and like, and then envelop him briefly.

Emerges again like a huge motion. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So because what you're trying to translate from the book is like either the metaphor or the or the sensation and the sensation is fear and trembling. And like this you want to be terrified of whatever is happening in front of you. It's exactly that sensation of I am a mere mortal. I'm tiny and there is this monster and not only is he monstrous, but he's like taking up more and more space.

There's even more of him pulling out. Yeah, like be horrific. You want to embody that horror and you want that moment of terror where you're like, oh, oh, it's bad, but oh, it's worse than I thought. Which I thought was well done in the movie.

I thought it was well done. I think I would prefer, I would think I would prefer something slightly more amorphous, just like you mentioned a little play more into the shadow.

Have it dissipate a little bit. If I was trying to please the fans.

Yeah, if I wanted to treat it. Just a little bit. So that was my thought. But it would be a tweet.

It's already perfectly suitable. It's so impressive. I always loved the Balrog scene and Gandalf is just so epic.

That's so funny. I love that there's controversy. We should do more controversy.

That's a big beef one. Yeah, people get in on that. Oh man, I was going to think, oh, this is another kind of funny.

This is just from like fantasy romance. One of the big things like a trope in fantasy romance is having a romantic character be like a shadow daddy is what they're called.

Like someone who could control. Someone who can control shadows. Oh no. And like the shadows like took your hair behind your ear. Do something like they control shadows. And so I was just thinking about Balrogs and all their shadows.

And I'm like, oh my gosh, the OG shadow daddy.

Nice. That is actually amazing and horrifying. I love it.

It's amazing and horrifying at the same time. But it does it does make me laugh.

But yeah, Balrogs, I'm trying to think if there's anything else that you want to add. I feel like I've just kind of been leading us from topic to topic.

Let me think about it for a second. I think that covers everything like kind of what you mentioned. There are five left. I feel like that is like a tasty morsel that should be fed to us at some point. But obviously if nobody has any rumors about them, he never wrote anything else about them.

My guess, because I feel like there is like the last battle kind of epic narrative. And they're reserved for that. My guess is because they have this tendency of kind of being in this hibernation mode until more golf calls on them. I think they'll come out at the last battle. Okay. Yeah, that makes sense.

It's kind of my impression if there's any remaining by the time he comes back. Okay. But oh, I was going to say I have this little question on here. And so I was thinking, what would you be? Would you be a bow rock?

Or if you could change your form to follow more golf in some way, what would your form look like? That was kind of my little funny question for you. Yeah.

Let me think about that. I mean, the ball rod is like 10 out of 10. Very epic. Yeah. And the implication like in that one quote you read before is that there was like one single flame of or spirit of flame that like did not turn into a ball rock.

There's that one. I don't know if it implies just the only one, but it was like this one. You know what I mean? Like this was one that was not. Okay.

Transform. Well, I have to say that ball rods are way up there just for coolness points. But I think my favorite is dragons.

You'd pick a dragon. If you had to pick a dragon. Over a bow rock. Yeah.

I'm totally cool with that. It's you're almost picking your vice too. Like is your vice going to be greed or whatever vice ball rocks have? It sounds like their vices naps.

Their vices nap. They just really like to like sleep all the time. They seem angry to me. They do seem angry. You know what I mean? I mean, I don't know that the dragon's not. Yeah. I just really enjoy dragons.

So I think I would pick a dragon. I mean, you can fly. We just talked about wings. Like, yeah, I would want to fly. Oh man. If I had to pick my following more goth into battle shape, I mean, bow rocks, they look pretty cool.

I feel like I would almost honestly, the enemy would just flee from you. You could walk into battle. You could be really lazy. You'd be like, I don't really feel like fighting today, but I know if I just show up, I won't have to just crack my whip once or twice. Yeah.

And so they have a fiery whip. If you were a dragon, I think it's mainly like your teeth and your claws. Flaying my desk. Oh yeah, fire. That would help. You know, I feel like my immediate thought was maybe I would be something like a water creature.

But then I'm like, nobody's coming at you in the water. Like there's like, I feel like he would have no purpose for me. I don't know. I guess I could feel like a kraken and crack up ships.

Oh my gosh, you're to be the watcher in the water. No, I don't want to be like an octopus-y thing. All I can see now is tentacles and your face.

No, no, I wouldn't want to be an octopus-y thing. I'd want to be, what would I want to be?

I guess I could be a sea dragon. What do you think a kraken is? I don't know. I'm just saying like the role of a kraken is to kind of like beat up on the ship. The better. You know? Yes. So maybe like sometimes like sea horsey type entity, but like dragon-ish.

Yeah, that could be cool. That could be cool. Okay, basically we just love

dragons, but no hate to bow rods because they are a bomb. They are. Okay.

That's all I have. They'll get the respect they're due.

I completely respect them.

Would definitely like dragons, if we were comparing to bears, I feel like dragons or something. Well, I would run away from a dragon, but I feel like I would potentially like spray a dragon with like dragon spray. You know, like how they have bear spray? I'd be like, go away.

Bowrog, I'm like- You throw a bunch of gold coins in his face and flee.

Exactly. Like I throw gold coins and flee. Bowrog is like, oh my gosh, I am desly scared.

Like I'm just, I'm going to try to like roll away at the slowest speed possible, but I don't know if it's going to happen. So anyways. All right. Bowrogs for the win. Bowrogs for the win. Thank you so much for joining us today. Yep. Talk to you later.

Bye.