Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia. Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, beatalons and lafflons. We are excited to have you as a new friend on this journey with us. Welcome to Speak Friend and Enter a Lord of the Rings podcast. Hi, welcome back. Welcome, welcome. So, we're gonna basically do some hot takes, some unpopular opinions.

I am very excited for this episode. We're gonna talk about underrated characters and overrated characters from Lord of the Rings. And, you know, don't pull any punches like everyone's on the table here, so Marillian, Lord of the Rings, people we haven't even met yet. Those are the best kinds of opinions on.

But we can hit anyone here. So, how are you feeling? Do you want to go first? How do you want to run and do? Should we each do one of each category and then just bounce back and forth? That might be good. Yeah, because I have a little, a few underrated, a few overrated, so we can go back and forth. Yeah, same.

And then I was thinking what we could do just in case we miss any. At the end, once we've shared our ones that we've accumulated, I thought I would ask ChatGBT to scour the internet and pull some of the top overrated and underrated names from Middle-Earth. Kind of did the vibe for overall fandom and the internet. Yeah, exactly. Let's see if they're, see what the internet's hot takes are. So, we're trying to be completely out of sync with them is how I feel like.

I feel like anytime I look at a thing up, I'm like, what? Where are these opinions coming from? Why are they not mine? Okay. All right. Well, I can start. I'm going to start, and I guess you can choose from your list. I'm going to start with an underrated. One of the characters I consider quite underrated is Boromir. I was just so curious about it.

Okay, go ahead. Yeah, I think he did a bad rap. I mean, for justifiable reasons, he does some naughty stuff.

Just a little bit. But like who among us has not said who will cast the first stone here who would not want to take the reen and use it for their own powers to save their people. And that's the thing. It's like everything he wants to do. It's so justifiable.

It's like he's got his people. They're bleeding out. They're dying.

They're sacrificing for everyone else. And here falls into his lap. He has the manipulative dad. Yeah, exactly.

Lots of family pressure and falls into his lap. This this potential opportunity. And like, I don't know. Most certainly he doesn't have this lineage and I'm just making this up. But I wonder if like, you know, the line of the stewards and the line of a silder may have crossed at one point at some point. Yeah, yeah, they may have been married. So maybe he almost feels like a familial draw. Like, oh, this is my responsibility to in the way that Aragorn feels like this field or obviously direct line. But so I don't know. This is like a long fanfiction of reasons to defend Boromir.

Some of them are legit. But I do feel badly for him. I feel like we see a lot of people fall to the influence of the reen and Boromir is the one we blame the most. You know, I do think it's so interesting. He was top on my list as so first of all, I feel like it's funny. My underrated list is much longer than my overrated. I just I love I love a lot of the characters. I was struggling to come up with overrated people. I was like, oh boy, this is a bad side that I like. These books too much. But don't worry.

I got some good ones. But I do think Boromir was on one of the ones that I thought of for underrated because he does receive so much hate. And I do think I don't know. I guess if you were to put me or another common person in the books, I really think that our story, my story would look more like Boromir's than anyone else's because he's being pushed, put up against colossal characters. Right.

Like we have Aragorn Legolas, Gimli. Like, um, I don't know. I think he's someone that shows. He has flaws, but they're such normal flaws. And he shows he shows, um, kind of like repentance afterwards where he recognizes that he's done something wrong. And and he redeems himself.

I mean, I cry like a baby every time Boromir. Yeah. Which I think is huge because if we think about and to be fair, I guess characters like Bilbo didn't have a lot of framing for the ring being evil. But if we think of characters that have had the ring, even for a short period of time or desired the ring and then recognize that it was evil, there's actually not a long list. You know what I mean? Like to be able to say I wanted that thing and then say, oh no, like that actually was terrible. Like he came to a realization and I don't know if a lot of characters when they desire the ring come to a realization.

Yeah. And like I guess I think one of the reasons that we take it so hard with Boromir in general is that this is the first betrayal of the fellowship. You think everything's rosy and then boom, Boromir comes in like wrecking ball and destroys everything. I'm like, no, it would have happened.

And if it wasn't Boromir, it would have been so glad to talk about that and the mirror with Frodo. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So like he did a bad rap. I don't think he totally deserves it. I also think he, you could argue he is one of the most crucial points of the whole Lord of the Rings plot because Just in the, in when he does it and how the fellowship breaks from him. Because he's the first one, right, to kind of go after the ring and we see how it's working on people. Frodo then decides, I have to go out on my own. He goes off on his own, Sam follows him and then we get that splintering with Aragorn and Legolas and Gimli who go off to Rohan and do their epic stuff. But it's like that is one of the key points for them to go off and realize what they need to do that this was serious.

So yeah, I don't know. I think he's, he's a hot take because I know he's not perfect, but I think he's over. He's underrated, underrated. Yeah.

And I just, I become more sympathetic to him every time because I look at him and I think, oh my gosh, like, man, he's just trying to do his, his best. Who am I? And this is not like that, you know, who am I? This does not fail to wake up every morning. Me. I don't know. There's that funny joke of like, God just his most difficult struggles to me, his bravest soldier or whatever that meme is.

And, and it's like, nope, you are my, my weakest soldier. Yes, you do have to open that email. You can't do it. Yeah. And I often feel like that.

Like, oh, it's me, the weakest soldier again. But do I have to? Yeah.

Yeah. But it's easy to forget that Boromir has done some legitimately great things like taking back Oskilius. Like he has not only held grounded in some order, he has taken some ground back.

And that's really impressive, given like the general state of the world at that time. So one last, just one last hurrah for Boromir. Exactly. Basically like, I really think he's cool.

The context of him and who he is as a person before, I think makes me view him so differently too. So yeah, I think underrated. So that's my first. I agree. I agree. It's consensus. Good. I'll keep track of the ones we disagree on. Okay.

Well, I feel like, and this is going along the same lines, I think there are a few people online who are fighting the good fight for this person. But people from the movies do not talk enough about Boromir. And I think it's because how handsome he is. Movie Boromir, they do him dirty in the movies. Yeah.

They make him. And that's the one that has the broadest. Well, maybe, maybe not the broadest reach, but like maybe the most recent cultural impact. I do think there are a lot of people who have just watched the movies who don't understand how, how good of a character he is. But the people who are in the books and who are, you know, fanning over him, I appreciate you fighting the fight on online for him. But yeah, he is such an incredible character because he is also under the same pressure that Boromir is under, right? He is actively trying to defend his people. He actually feels probably a little more pressure because he knows Boromir is dead. He knows Boromir is gone.

And so what's intriguing to me is this isn't a foil in the sense of I think Boromir is terrible, but this is an interesting foil for me. They're brothers and they're foils of each other, I think, because we see how men who are trying to do something for, you know, for good. They're trying to save their people. They save their people can view this so differently and react so differently because in the books, Boromir lets Frodo go. He doesn't take the ring. And I think part of it is also him recognizing that something terrible happened to Boromir, right?

Yeah. And I haven't gotten to this part yet on my reread. Isn't it implied that Faramir is not tempted by the ring? I don't know if it's implied that he's not tempted. Or maybe it's just like he rejects it before it can put a hook in him. He's very cautious of this ring, right?

Okay. I will be interested to see that because of the people that we have seen with the ring. I think only Tom Bombadil is one. I think only Tom Bombadil is like completely blind and like not tempted by any.

I mean, for Lagerl is tempted by like Bandholf is tempted by everyone is tempted by it. And I can't remember if Faramir is, which could be another point for him or just be like, whoa, this guy's weird. I think he was very, he was very cautious about it because this is the quote that everyone talks about from the books that love him about why he's so awesome. And it's the fact that he had a different philosophy on war and duty than Boromir, supposedly. So, so Boromir was very much like, I need to save my country.

I need almost like the heroic like I need to come in potentially by any means. Yeah, exactly. Like this is almost like a saviorism kind of thing. Like I need, we need to do this thing to come in here.

And Faramir is very much like this is something I do because I have to. Right. Like this isn't a glory.

Like let's go in and let's use this again. Is this I is this the I do not love the sword for its sharpness. Yes, you got to read that out. I love this. Yeah, it's a good quote from two towers. Actually, I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness nor the arrow for its swiftness nor the warrior for his glory.

I love only that which they defend. Yeah. But even with that, like I agree that potentially there could be some arrogance to Boromir. Like a different take on that. But in the end, Boromir really did just want to defend as well. Yeah, that's true too. So I think there's still an avenue for for Faramir to get hooked in by the ring, but he was panning. He rejected it and I will be curious to see if there's some line in there when I reread about like whether the temptation was there.

I know we'll have to like get more of a context. I think throughout the last few books about what we think of him. But I do think he's underrated not because people who actually read the books don't think he's awesome. But just because people don't know his character properly, especially if they've just watched the movies.

Yeah, that's fair. On a Faramir note, I got a haircut and when I came back, reviews were, whoa, were you going for the Faramir cut? Oh my gosh. Definitely.

Well, it's it. Well, everyone thinks the original wolf exactly everyone likes the way he looks. So I don't think that's totally a failure.

I was not upset by this comparison to be clear. That's so funny. I love that.

Okay, excellent. Do you have anyone else on your underrated? I do.

I have more. Maybe maybe we'll continue down underrated and switch over to overrated. Yeah.

I think that my net's underrated is the Eagles. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I just constantly, constantly people are like, why did they not take the Eagles? Yeah, people are trash talking to Eagles all the time. And I'm just here to defend them and say, look, they have their they have their own business going on. Supposedly they're also like the Eagles of the gods like Manway. So they have their own business. Man, where is that fricking scripture quote?

Here it is. Those who trust in the Lord will renew their strength. They will soar on wings. Oh, I was reading some scripture like recently that literally said I will bury you up on Eagles, Wings or something like that. I had not noticed that before, but now obviously now that I understand the context of Manway and the Eagles and the Louvitar, it is quite clear to me now that these Eagles are not supposed to be involved in like mortal matters at all.

The fact that they have ever danged their miracles. Yeah. Interesting.

Yeah. They're essentially, yeah, they are on an entirely different level. They're not just like hanging around their nest waiting for Gandalf to send them off. They certainly are not.

They have other things to do. And I don't know. I don't remember the full context. I know there's something like, uh, I don't remember what they're supposed to be doing with like during the period of Lord of the Rings. There is some other thing that they're doing. Is it like the dwarves are having a war or something?

Am I making that up? I don't know what they're doing in the time period of Lord of the Rings. But whatever they're doing, it's probably because a real Louvitar has specifically told them to do that thing. And you don't just get to like say, Hey, miracle, can you just wait a minute until they're done? So it's convenient now. And then can I, yeah, exactly.

Um, yeah. So I think the fact that I previously did not know that they had this mystical, mystical, mystical angle to them. I didn't know they had a, like a, what's the word I'm looking for? I didn't know they were sacred. Yeah. Essentially, you know, that they had this connection to the gods.

And now that I know that I'm like, well, duh, of course you can't just have them whenever you want. Like, of course a real Louvitar could like reach down with a finger and just like fix everything if he wanted to. But that's not the point. The point is, can the people of the world do it? That's, this is the test of their time. It's not the test for a real Louvitar or the Eagles. Um, so I just got a little like saucy about that thinking about this this time around.

Um, and they do pull their weight regardless of like whatever structures are under. I was just thinking about how at the end of Lord of the Reans, if they, if Sam and Frodo throw the ring into the fire and then they die on that rock covered in lava. I mean, that would be so much more tragic. Sad vibe.

It would be so sad. And so the fact that the Eagles come and Dan all comes and you know, they, they are saved by the Eagles. I think it's beautiful.

And again, that scripture and I will try to find the quote in the T. J. V. Um, Eagles. I do think also it's so interesting. It's just beautiful to be born away on Eagles and for that to be exactly what happens to Sam and Frodo at the end. I do think this is so intriguing too, because when we're talking about the instances kind of where they were used, we're getting the sense at least at the end of like Frodo and Sam have done all that they can do. You know what I mean? Like they have done the thing. No one could ask more of them. It's not. I don't know. It's intriguing because the Eagles don't come as like the last leg.

They come once they're finished. And I think that's it's an act of mercy. Right. I mean, Frodo and Sam easily could have died. They had no way to get home. They could have just expired from dehydration before Gandalf.

Melted or the heat or anything. They could have just died before Erdogan could finish killing his last orc and march his way across. It looked like a far amount.

It looked like a long way. You know, maybe a day or two. They could have just died. And I appreciate exactly what you said that like they had done everything they could. They had put their last ounce of strength into it.

They had nothing left. And that's when, you know, it would live to our man way. It would live to my sense and it was. Yeah. Which is a different perspective than like I'm going to solve this for you. It's more like you're going to do this. But like, this is my, yeah, this is my, I guess gift or I object. Yeah. And I guess I just really object to this idea of like kind of like a facile take on it.

Like, you know, just I don't know, just fly with the eagles, it just makes me bad now. I don't know. That's not an option. Basically, that's not how it works. That's not how any of this works. You don't understand. Read the Simerillian. Yeah, pretty much.

All right. So the Eagles for me, they are not to be blamed for anything. They did more than they could be asked for. I love them.

And they're extremely symbolic. Yeah, I love it. So much there. I love that. That's so funny. Okay.

I said, this is my next one because I have Muchos love, Muchos respect for this person and I'm a little scared of them. And Brian said that they are not underrated, but I'm curious that you think, I think Gollum is so underrated. Gollum.

Gollum. Because people never talk about that he is the one that took the like, snatched the ring and then he was dancing and then he fell and it was like he has talked a lot about, but it is hard to Yeah, I see what you're saying. I guess it is talked about less people talk about how funny he is like, how much they enjoy his scenes or don't but I'm like, we don't talk enough about him as like an arc like this incredible character that he went through this extreme struggle. Well, you start with all of the fellowship and you got Frodo with the ring and you can look at all those fellowship all these like, you know, bright faces and bold manly men and you look at them and you're like, okay, well which one of these is going to succeed in destroying the ring and it's not a single one of them. I know. And it's definitely not Frodo, though I enjoy Frodo more than the other person. But like, it's exactly, we've talked about this before, we're like Frodo failed bing time and it's only Gollum that led to the ring.

But I think what's so intriguing is this is similar with Boromir we tend to I think underrate people who we think failed, right? Like Gollum also didn't necessarily do it out of the goodness of his heart. Like he was succumbing. He was succumbing to power and influence. But he was basically we've talked about this before, like he was a tool almost like in the sense of the the universe to like. Yeah, in the cosmic sense where a real Lufitar is constantly saying, I can turn any evil thing to good or to my good and to my purposes. Yeah.

And he does it with Gollum. And like you don't know the point of a person's life, right? Love that quote again. Do you know justice and can you give it to them and like, I don't know, it's just Can you give life to somebody that you've you have at Situated?

Yeah, so I don't know. I just think Gollum in terms of an arc. I just I think he's fascinating. We talk about Andy Serkis and his incredible voice and his incredible scenes and the back and forth is hilarious.

He's so talented. But I just think as a character and as an arc and a hero in a way, we don't talk about Gollum. So yeah. And we've talked about this in the past about things that are supposedly Tolkan fantasy or derived from Tolkan fantasy that got popular and things that didn't. I don't really feel like the Dollum character got popular.

I don't think it did. Because he is a complicated character. He's a complicated character and it's not a raw. He's very unique. Yeah. And he's very unique and also like kind of gross.

Right. So it's like, not one that you're going to want to be super close to. But but exactly what you're saying like that kind of arc of like, this is definitely irredeemable evil and not even just like cool, sexy it's like gross, dirty kind of like raw fish evil.

Yeah, he's gross. And then exactly to like find a place in the story where that particular character can contribute in a way that basically like you said the whole story hinges on it. Yeah. I can't think of anything off the top of my head.

That's similar. And I love the lineup too. We have a whole fellowship and we think surely it's one of these that is going to destroy the right handsome heroes. Look at all these all stars. Look at all these handsome heroes.

Yeah, I don't know. I think like I said I think people love Gollum as a character because I think he's funny or interesting. But for the wrong reasons. Yeah.

You're only here for the for the arc. Yeah, I just well I love all of the the performative stuff too. But I just yeah, no, I think he's underrated as a character concept and yeah, it's really cool. No, I agree with that.

I agree. We don't have to fight yet. Excellent. What you got.

Okay, I have another one highly underrated. Oh, Lucian. Oh, we've talked about this, but like I don't feel and having now read this is from the summer.

Yeah. Yeah, but here's the thing like in previous pop knowledge or just like osmosis of Lord of the Rings I had a vague idea that Lucian was you know the predecessor to Arwen and like there was a love story and she would have been beautiful and the Baron and probably not done a ton. You know, Arwen doesn't do much in the context of Lord of the Rings, right?

And then we actually read Lucian and I'm like, who is Barad? Like I agree. She's out there doing literally everything single-handedly not single-handedly, that's rude, but like she is so powerful and so bold. Both of them were were very I don't even know Brave is the right world where I would say bold.

I would say willing to sacrifice everything. Right? Yes, but also just like the themes that they pulled off like taking the Silmarillion off of the crown it's just totally wild wild stuff.

So yeah, Lucian is highly underrated. I had never even heard a hint of that side of her. I just assumed this was another Arwen and I'd like Arwen to be clear. I don't want to sound like I'm dishing her but like I did not get any sense of this like edgy character who like was a little bit crazy obviously. She was incredibly powered right?

Like if we're talking about and I didn't think that's either. Yeah, she is incredible and I also agree that what's funny is I feel like she's kind of underrated in the Simmarillion like all the characters are just like, oh you got the Simmarillion Oh impressive. They're not like, oh my freaking gosh you can like sing this demon dog to sleep or like you can like show up as this nobody seems to expect her to do anything in that one either.

But they also don't seem crazy shocked. And I feel like I would be like, like especially the dad, what's his name? Dingol.

Dingol. Like I'd be like, oh my gosh you can do this? Like, like she's a unique character in her talents. And she uses her powers very well very effectively She's not out for glory.

Right? And like the end of the love story was more unique than I anticipated either. Like I just assumed that you know, Baron would die and Luthien would outlive him because that was the setup of like a man and an elf and it wasn't that way at all. So it was all just like a lot more interesting and convoluted than I anticipated.

And Luthien was not the character at all that I thought she would be. And I feel like it's a situation of, you know, when you hear somebody's radio voice and you see a picture of them, you're like, oh boy. Very different. Would never have matched those two things together. So I feel like I heard Luthien's voice and then I saw a picture of her. I was like, whoa. Wait a second. Exactly. Yeah. So she's my my third one. I love that. I think that's very accurate because I was just singing through the Simmerillion again and I'm like, is there anyone that I would say is like as I don't know underrated and there's a lot of good characters in the Simmerillion that a lot of people don't talk about because it's not Lord of the Rings is not the novel.

But I do think just like off the top of my head she's performed the most incredible stuff. I was shocked. Yeah. Not nearly the same level as other characters or stories. Yeah.

It's I don't know. I would kind of like relate it to when you read about Alexander the Great and if you've read about him go read Arian which is the book where his like biography I guess is I going into that book had the sense of like, oh yeah, he's Alexander the Great. He must have been a genius. But I only knew like two actual facts about him.

It's like he died young and he cut the Gordian knot. That's like literally the only things I knew. And then I read this book and at every junction I'm like, whoa, that was really interesting and cool. And then something else happened and I'm like, oh my goodness.

Wow. So you do all these wow moments and then you hear about times when he's like deli dating outworked to other people and you're like, oh boy. And of course it fails and things go badly. But it's just it becomes super clear that not only was he genius but he was just on a different level.

Nobody else was on his level at all. Like even remotely. He's just inventing stuff X and the Hilo constantly.

And I feel like, I don't know, it may be bold to say that Luthien is on that same level but it kind of feels like that because we have how many years of fain or trying to get his stupasoma rills back and Luthien does it in like one day. I just I feel like also it's really interesting to me. I think there was like a really interesting commentary there on like pureness of intent of desire, pureness of heart and like love and doing it for the right reasons because fain or is cursed with this like this greed this this object where she is able to go in and bypass all of that and say I know why I'm here and I'm willing to die for it. Right? Like it's incredible. Yeah.

Yeah. So good. I love it. I love it. I love that one. Okay. Well this one I feel like could be considered.

I don't know. Some people talk a lot about this but I just feel like we talked about more and this is my girl Aowyn. I just feel like we talk about her because we love Lord of the Rings. We've read it. We've watched the movies. Obviously she's a queen but I just don't feel like people outside of Lord of the Rings know that much that there's like this incredible female character and that I don't know she's so core to the final battle on the final story.

She doesn't show up until two towers at least. Right? I think so. Yeah.

And so I just um actually I'm double checking myself. Yeah. Yeah. I think so.

And so I just think it's so interesting to me because to be fair there's not a lot of female characters there's not a lot of them doing big stuff but I love her and I think she's so well written and well portrayed as like someone who wants to sacrifice for her kingdom and wants to sacrifice for her family and is like that same motivation of I want to save my people. Yeah. How can I? Yeah. And I don't know. I just think she's really well written in a time period when I don't know writing about women wasn't always uh satisfactory maybe like some of the female characters that you hear or read about. Yeah.

I also really like her friendship with Mary. Yeah. Which I'm excited.

I haven't gotten into two towers I'm excited to see what's on the page there. Yeah. Um because they show it in the movies and it's like very cute. I really enjoy it. Um yeah.

I also really appreciate this is a movie theme but um when Aya Mir finds her on the battlefield and she looks dead um I feel like his actor does really do job of portraying that short of sort of like shock and grief and just uh it's a great portrayal of how well she is loved. Yeah. Um I really enjoyed that scene too. I think so. I also appreciate her as a character because you have a couple of common things that I think you see in women's storylines a lot which is her being desired as like a sexual character by warm uh warm tongue which is yeah accurately kind of disgusting but you see this like um I don't know people wanting her for what they can what she can offer in that and then too her being like a sister to someone who is a very strong warrior and very much like stay at home I got this you know what I mean and like her coming from a family of very strong men and um kind of misogynistic in a way very much so and so I just think that she is such an interesting character because you see her being surrounded by hard things that women have been surrounded by in the past there is I think again more movie based but there is a really nice touch with the basically like the healing of her relationship with Aiden um who is her surrogate father right and who feels like he has failed her and I think you should definitely say that he he had you know in the past like he hadn't protected her as much as he could have and because he had fallen under the um worm ton and Saruman's influence and he hadn't been there to protect her and I mean the way things were going before Dandolf got in she would definitely have been sold off to Wormton like in about two minutes terrifying really dark stuff is happening around her she feels super trapped in her own home right um And I really appreciate the line, I know that face or I know your face. Right, yeah.

Yeah, it's just beautiful. Like, you know, she did to have her father back in the end. She wasn't able to save him, like he still died. But she got to see him healed and like that moment.

So, I really enjoy that. It's uncommon, I feel like, for me to put an underrated because people love her. But I just don't think outside of like, I don't know, outside of the L-O-T-R community, like people talk about Airborne, people talk about Legolas or Frodo. Like there are some basic names that come up when people are like Lord of the Rings, yeah, gotcha. And I just wish that A-O-N was one of those names.

There's like, oh, there's that really cool chick who does the Nazgul, A-O-N, like that would be nice. Yeah, I love that. Okay, you got any? I have two more. Perfect.

So, this one is like, I didn't realize that these insisted, but this is our talking animal categories. This is from Silmarillion. So, Juan and Tarkaroth.

Oh my gosh. I don't remember if Tarkaroth talks, but I'm assuming he can if he wants to. But like, Juan, like fighting, Sauron and defeating him. And just like this whole concept of like, I loved that he only had three opportunities in his life to speak. I love his relationship with Luthien. I love him deserting that one elf whose name starts with a C who I hate.

Oh yeah. Corofan. Yeah, Corofan. Woo, nice.

Bitch save on remembering the name. And then I love the way Tarkaroth is described. Every description of Tarkaroth is just so cool. He is, every line describing him is just so neat.

And I don't know, I guess Juan gives the Silmarillion, it gives it this like misted, like beowulf, aged feeling, but also gives it a touch of the Narnia, which I also really enjoy. And we know that like Tolton and C.S. Lewis were writing buddies along with some third mysterious gentleman whose name nobody knows.

I have no idea who that guy is. But yeah, those were really, those characters Juan and Tarkaroth were like a really pleasant surprise. It was like, ooh, we're mixing things up. We've got like big bad animals coming in clutch.

We got this. And everything that happens with Tarkaroth, like him biting off Baron's hand spoilers. And everything that went on there was awesome. Loved it. So good.

This is very good. So I had never heard of either of those two. So to me, they're underrated. I honestly feel like the creatures in Lord of the Rings or like the Smyrllion are bomb. Like, oh my gosh.

The names of them. Oh my gosh. Okay. I want to look up because another one from the Smyrllion, which I'll just, I don't know if I'll just tack it on to you guys, but Glaurung, do you remember Glaurung? And how he like, he basically deceives, is it Heron? No. It's Turven. Turven. And his sister, Nessa?

I can't remember. But like he is so sneaky and evil. He is so nasty. And like the creatures and Tolkien's like smog even, like, oh, they are good. They're very good.

All right. I'm not 100% on Nessa, but I'm pretty sure that's who it is. Turren's sister. But yeah. No, I should be wrong. Something with an N though.

Hold on. Name of Turren's sister. Nianor? Yeah.

Yeah, there we go. Yeah, Glaurung is a nasty guy. He was nasty. Yeah, he knew exactly what he was doing. Like he was, yeah, he was horrible, but I was like, dang, Dragon, you're sneaky. Yeah, yeah. Oh, fun though. I love dragons, not gonna lie.

Dragons, evil dragons. Very, very good. Very, very good. What about you? Do you have any other underrated?

I think I had one more, which I think, I don't know. I feel like mine are more on the cusp. They're more like things and characters that I love. I just wish people talked about them more.

I love that you're bringing in more similar ones. Okay, this one, which I think people may argue with, I think the Nazgul. You reject the people's opinions.

Reject it. I think the Nazgul are underrated. And people may say, but they don't really do that much. They just ride around looking scary. Those are people who've never been chased in the dark.

It's terrifying. And they might say they're really bad at looking for things. And I will say, you're right.

But let me ask you this. Who is the really bad character in Lord of the Rings? Who is the one that strikes fear in you? And this is the thing, we only see Soran as an eyeball. His minions, the people that strike fear, especially like in the first, I think the first movie and then the second, no, the last movie, the third movie, is really the Nazgul. They're drapes, they're horses, they're fellow beast, they're masks. When they get the upgrade to the fellow beast, when they did that upgrade and you're like, they can fly and like terrifying, disgusting, looking on almost dragons, it's cool.

It's unbelievably cool. They are just a vibe. And I know people might be like, the vibe's not underrated.

I think it is. I think the vibe that they bring, the evil vibe, is underrated because Soran's just sitting in his tower, he's an eyeball. But they are what drive the fear in the first movie and the third movie, I would say. So my nephews are constantly making a little like Lado characters. And I don't remember what the context of this was, but one of them who's like seven or eight was trying to show me something and you know how kids are when they bring you your things, you have to look and be like, oh yeah, very nice. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Anyway, so he had brought me some series of themes and like five out of seven were Nazgul. And I was like, hey buddy, what's going on here? He's like, can't you tell the difference? They're all look unique.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he's like, I love Nazgul. So at least the children are not underrated. This goes back to my thing.

Nazgul are amazing. So yes, thank you for letting me have the podium. You're justified. You're justified. My last one, and this is again my own soap box and I'll stick to it, faded, highly underrated. I contend that he gives the best battle speech, which I will pull up now.

I did not prepare. It is so good. And like, you know, we have some other people giving good speeches out there. Like Eragorn, I guess delivers a good one.

However, I really feel like Hayden's is the best one. So here it is. Let me find it. Oh, we got a stim, we got a stim.

Cause it's really long. Oh my goodness. Thank you for your part. Isn't it me? Yeah. All right. We'll do the, here it is. A rise, rise, riders of Thayden, fell deeds awake, fire and slaughter, spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered, a sword day, a red day.

Air the sun rises, right now, right now, ride to Gondor. And then in the movies, and I will have to read through this long paragraph later, in the movies, they then charge with the war cry of death. Yeah.

Screaming death. I really, I really kind of love that. Not for like super morbid reasons, but because they are. It gives me tingles. Like I feel shivers.

Yeah. Like every single time I watch it, it's totally amazing. It's hard to describe why. And I think the reason why is because it's the defiance. Like we are not afraid to die. There is stuff that is worse than death. And we won't let that come to pass.

We are here to stop it. So yeah, I love that speech. It is by far my favorite one. I think it's just kind of shocking for me whenever I hear it or listen to it because I'm just like, really death? That's what you want to scream like.

It's great. Not victory, not like, I don't know, something that a little more, this is, this is your amp-up song. Like I said. Yeah. But there's something so amp-up about like, I guess that defiance. Yeah. Like I'm not afraid of it.

Let it come. And almost kind of being like brutal honesty. You know what I mean?

Especially if you think about how they fight. Like you are starting with a charge. Yeah. And like, yes, a charge can break the enemy, but also anything can happen in a charge. Like you just don't know.

So I don't know. And I think it's also, I mean, that scene is just, it's so rich. But I think it's also really intriguing to me because these are people that are not, they're not doing too hot. You know what I mean? They just came from Helms Deep. They're kind of like in a beat and battered. And I think that's why also I'm like, really, you're not going to sugar coat it a little bit because like they've, they've been struggling, but they have come and they've decided to kind of take this moment to side with Gondor. And I think what's very intriguing to me about them saying death and then just charging is it's like, this is all they know how to do. Like they're going to fight the way they know how to fight. They're going to give what they have.

And they're not hiding the cost. That's going to be it. Yeah. So it is really inspiring. I do like that. I love him. He's the best airborne is great to obvious.

But the prize of best speech, those. It is good. It is good. It shocks me every time.

I'm always like, what? But it is very impressive. Okay.

Should we go to overrated? Yes. Let's do it. Okay. This one, I feel like I had to do a little teaser.

I considered putting Aragorn and overrated. You can't do that. I didn't even consider it. I was a loyal thing. I just, I just couldn't.

Like I know I was like, he just, everybody talks about Aragorn, Aragorn, Aragorn, Aragorn, all the memes are about Aragorn and how hot he looks, pushing those doors open in the second movie. Yeah. It's a cult. I actually, I think, I think it's valid. So I considered putting him on the list, but, but I couldn't. Um, and glad to hear that because we would have to. I know. I know.

He's just, he's so good. Um, but my next one, which I did put on the list actually breaks my heart because this is my favorite character in the whole trilogy. Well, who it is now, what's going on here? Cause I'm going to have to tell you why. Because I had, so the character I'm talking about is Gandalf, the most incredible character. But this is the thing I had a friend who just watched Lord of the Rings, partially because I told her I was doing a podcast on it.

Oh, okay. So a true vision. True vision. And she watched all three. She had previously, I think only made it through like the first. And so she watched all three and she said, I have to tell you, I was really disappointed with Gandalf. And I was like, what? What? Like I was shocked. I was shook. I was all of the things I was tremoring.

Right. I was like, he's my favorite character. And she said he comes back in the second movie and I'm like, Oh my gosh. Yeah.

And we got a Y wizard. Like she's thinking it. And she's like, the only thing he does is spur a little light towards the felbys and the third movie. And that's it. And she was so, she was so disappointed with the lack of magical strength. And I was like thinking about it.

And I was like, Oh my gosh, what do you mean? Like Gandalf is the strategic thinker. He's the one that rides between countries to make sure that everyone's on the same page. He's the one that makes sure that Pippin lights the beacon. Like he is the lynchpin. And in that battle, he is the only one holding the Gondor defenses.

The only one who was like, we got this. Like keep the gates together. Exactly. He's the only reason they didn't get in after two minutes. In my head, I'm like, but that was not magic.

That was leadership. I'm like, this character is essential. But she was like, I was so disappointed.

He's a white wizard. I expected more. And so for me, I think I just have to say, like after talking with her and considering it more, there's an element of, I wish he had shown more magical chops.

Right. Like they even say like the Nazgul, the Lord of the Nazgul, whatever is the thing that he's scared going up against, but he obviously has the ability. And I just think there was an opportunity for more magical action. Not saying he's not an amazing, an amazing character. But you're just saying like from a newcomer, that would be maybe the expectation.

Very disappointing in terms of magical. Yeah. Content. That is interesting.

I have some thoughts on that one. I think in the movie, I could be wrong. We'll have to read the book to confirm because it's been a minute for me. I think in the movie they have in the extended edition, they have the witch teen of Aymar Braytis. Oh, I forgot about that, which I believe does not happen in the books. So that's a that's a loss for Dandoff that may or may not be canon, technically.

And then two, and this is the gift of knowledge that only reading the Silmarillion can give you. I think what we know is that because he's using Nenya, which is the fire ring, I did think about. Is using, he is channeling a very subtle kind of magic.

And I think it's, but it's kind of like, can you prove a negative? I don't think it's subtle because I think he's able to inspire. He's able to bring that fire to people. But I think it is very subtle. Like if you were expecting magic in terms of like an action movie. Yeah, exactly.

So I think that he is probably using magic every day, all day during the season, gone door, trying to keep them on their posts. And I think we underestimate how scared everybody was. I totally agree. But she was like, I was expecting him to spit some fire out of felbies. And you're not going to see that. You're not going to see that. Yeah.

So I was like, you're. It's also been just told, and does magic differently. He does. He is not very dramatic. Yeah.

It's pretty rare for it to be super dramatic. Well, I appreciate that. From me. I appreciate it. I thought I would mention it. It breaks my heart, but I thought it was a somewhat valid argument.

So I had to include it. Very fair. Very fair. We can disagree with your friend. We can disagree, but I think it was like I had to put it. Alas, she's probably right. But it's very funny.

All right. So for me, the first one that I thought of, and it was quite difficult to think of overrated. That's how I knew I was biased.

I would say that probably ledger is the most overrated. Oh my gosh. Are you saying I'm blinded by Orlando Bloom's beauty? It's possible.

It's possible. I will say he doesn't have much. I mean, if we're talking movies, he doesn't have much, by the way, lines. But he rides down the staircase on a shield, Lydia. I know it's very enjoyable. He takes down the olive font.

There's lots of great things. He gets on a horseback where it's because they did. But I kind of look at him and other than his friendship with Dippley, I'm not sure if there's anything he does that another elf can do. Wow. Are you serious?

I'm serious. Like is he bringing the Merckwood Elves into the Alliance? We only did Rivendell or LaFlorien Elves. I think it's LaFlorien Elves, right?

Yeah, I think LaFlorien Elves show up deep. Yeah. So he's not contributing meaningfully in terms of like troops.

He is a great friend. But like we need bodies. We need more bodies. Well, what about, okay, then I dare not ask this question, but what about Gimli?

Where are the dwarves? I had the same thought with him. And so I kind of have them as a pair and set here. Oh my gosh. Where are the dwarves? Lydia! Where are they?

I enjoy these individuals, but where are their peoples? Oh my gosh. That's brutal. You know, you're going up like some of the most loved characters.

Here's a thing though. It is brutal. Well, it's brutal that like the dwarves aren't fighting in the last battle here against Sauron.

I know. Like I feel like that's a little, I know, I feel like I can condemn them a little bit for that. They had the dwarves in general have one single battle where their team dies and respect.

He was cool, I'm sure. And then we never see them for the rest of the books. What are they up to?

How long can it take to mine? I think what? Mythril. Like, they seem to be very self involved. I think they are. And I, well, not entirely. I think they are more like a divided sub species where it sounds like with the rings that Sauron gave and some of the other drama going on with dragons that there were some dwarves that were siding with the Dark Lord and then there were some dwarves that were potentially open.

Are there dwarves with Sauron? I think originally in the battle, when was the, what was the battle called with the five armies one? I was actually thinking the one where the ring gets cut off. Oh, yes. I'm not going to remember the name of that.

It has a cool name. Things were a little bit divided there. I could be wrong. I think battle. I don't think anyone fought with Sauron. I don't think any dwarves fought with Sauron. I think some small amount of dwarves fought with the elves, but then they left the battle when their team died. I could be off base though.

Dwarves fought on the side of the last alliance. Yeah, but not all. And that's the thing. They have never fully showed up. That's what I'm saying is they are a sub species. They're species that they are not, they're not moving in unison.

If you read Harry Potter, it's kind of like in the last battle, the Slytherin's all bad, Gryffindor is all good, Hufflepuff's all good, but Ravenclaw's split. Like that's kind of what I get here is like they're making their own choices. Yeah, interesting. But yeah, that is, that is a hot take.

Yeah. And like I feel bad about it because I really do feel like, you know, their friendship with Eridorn is very meaningful. Obviously their friendship with each other is very meaningful and has like a higher level contacts of like the friendship between elves and dwarves being repaired, et cetera.

However, in terms of defeating Sauron, I'm just not 100% sure that we couldn't have gotten any other elf. That's wild. That's wild.

I don't know that he contributed uniquely. I love it. I like him just fine. Well, now I'm starting to question, I feel like I'm starting to question everyone. If you're going after the core, the core of the fellowship.

Oh man, this is tough. I do. Do you have one? Well, it's made me think of like some, okay, I think this one is very commonly said because they're not written in the book as much as they're shown in the movie. I do think I love Arwen, but her presence is very movie based versus book based. And I think that she does do a lot of, I don't know, kind of character flushing out when it comes to her and Aragorn of like, there's this person, the support that believes in him, that has this ability to kind of like defy death to, to do all of these things that's like this, I don't know. And I also thought they did a good job of haining the fate of her mortality on the outcome.

And that causes a lot of tension as well. So I really like Arwen in the movies. She's not as mentioned in book. And I do think we talk a lot about Aragorn and Arwen. But she probably in a way that you think is overrated. I think in a way that we, we lean on it like it's canon.

And I don't think it's. Well, when we read the appendix, let's find out. Yeah, that's what I'm saying is they have this love story. I just don't think it's right in center in the books. And since it's supposed to be an analog for Baron and Luthien, like, yeah, I think reading into it is fine because it's clearly a corollary. We just don't have all the tan in, in the story. I will say I thought of another underrated while you were talking. I know we're supposed to go over it, but I just love all the characters. That's okay. Hall dear.

Like the elf that comes to the steppe. I know exactly who you're talking about. Mr. McCauley. Yes, that one, the one in the same.

Okay. I don't even know if he's actually attractive. But when he shows up with his reinforcements, yeah, and the music and then right behind him, all the elves turn. Oh, oh, oh, it gets me every time. And you just think and you're like, wow, finally, somebody competent has showed up to the battle. And so he's underrated because we talk and let's just say his whole force and by that you could extend it and say gladrials underrated because I was having an argument with my husband, Brian about if gladrials was overrated.

And I said, no, she is not. But I think you could take this as another piece of that is like homesy, but it had gone very differently without the elves. So I think yeah, 100% there. Um, complete agreement. All right. I have one overrated. Tell me. Turret Turin bar.

Highly overrated. This is like the only name that I recognized prior to reading the summer really knew about who read and I had heard about Turin and I thought, oh boy, we're in for a bad time with this naming system. No, um, and then I read him and I'm like, I don't know. I had some complaints in that episode and I think it was basically, okay, so he says that he's not going to like, um, raid people anymore. And then two seconds later, we find him raiding people again. Like what is happening here? He just seems like a stretchy dude living a stretchy life who was involved in a great tragedy, obviously.

Yeah, he is very well. Wasn't in that. Yeah. And I just feel like he was not heroic. I don't know how to consider him. He wrote, I did not. I was not convinced that he qualified as a hero.

Um, and I think he compares poorly to obviously Aragorn, but like even Baron. Honestly, I think I like Fingal more than him. We had a lot of complaints about Fingal. Yeah, but then Fingal grew on me. Um, and Turin, I don't know just because his story is so depressing that he was unable to grow on me, but yeah, he never grew on me. And I looked ahead and I'm like, I don't know that I like the idea of him being one of the heroes that comes down at, uh, what, what is it called? The final battle. A Daggeroth, Doroth, Daggeroth or something like that. Yeah. I don't know if I love that.

I think everyone else was fine, but I don't know that he deserves to be there. Dagor Dagger. So, um, I just, I do think it's interesting. He seems a little, he kind of gives me a Robin hood aesthetic, but without doing like all the good. Yes, it's like off.

There's like an imbalance. Exactly. And so I feel like I could appreciate him as a gray character that maybe he does some not great stuff, but I feel like the thing is I don't really feel like he uses it to do good stuff. Like he is a bandit and does all of this stuff, but I don't like, he's mean to that dwarf and takes over his little hill and he's like, I don't know. He doesn't seem like a super nice person. He's a proper bandit.

He's out there attacking people that didn't do anything to him. And in a world that has orcs, I just can't really justify that. I am. Yeah. Like if you're going to be out there fighting people, just kill some orcs. I mean, he does do a lot against, I don't know, like it sounds like Morgos.

He kills Glauron. That is the one thing that I can say he did well. He seems like a battle, just like a battle person. Like he's just intensely interested in the fight. Yeah.

And not well directed. Yeah. So interesting. That's a rough one for me, Turin. Not my favorite. Not a winner.

And because I had heard of him and had not heard of Juan and Tarkaroth, I feel like he is over it. Yeah. Like they are bomb and you are not. Exactly.

You can't even compare to Tarkaroth. Um, okay. I have one more. Well, do you have one more? I have a thinking of another. This is my last one. You go ahead. All right.

No, no, no, this one will save. I, uh, I don't know. Part of me hates to say it, but I kind of think Bilbo might be overrated.

Oh, I don't know. From the Hobbit. From the Hobbit, but then also just like, I think by my question mark is, are the Hobbits overrated? Because Gandalf's like, only a Hobbit could, could do this thing or could be, could be resist the ring or to, could, you know, be sneaky and get into smogs cave or could do all of this stuff.

And my question is, I don't know. They seem pretty normal and like they have no fighting skills to me. So I would say that the Hobbits as a people are not overrated. Really?

And I think there's some strong defense of them. Yeah. Tell me. Um, because there is, it's, I don't know. It's like, they're like a specialty.

Right. You break them out for the stuff that really needs to get done in a really particular way. And it seems like with something like the ring, which is like, here's the universal temptation that can get in to anybody whatsoever. You need some specialty, guard or defense or equipment against it. And only somebody has death as a Hobbit whose only love is bread and cheese and beer. Like it's the unmovable object versus the, uh, versus power and control versus the, the irresistible force or whatever. Like it is the only counter to the ring and the fact that there's literally no one else, because they have such, well, I guess limited ambition is the way to say it, though that sounds mean, um, but they have a very focused ambition and a very pure ambition and it's very, um, they have a very specific sense of success. Of living a good life.

And it's about home. It's, it's actually, they have a strong sense of the good life and it has nothing to do with, um, power or fighting or taking territory or anything like that. Even your most benign, you know, man wants a little power and territory. I wake up every morning.

He has more power and territory. Every morning, Stephanie. Um, so I appreciate the Hobbits in general for that. And I, I think that they are essentially. Greedless. And that is a very remarkable trait, um, in this world of other characters.

When we've seen with the Silmarillion exactly how greedy even the Elts are. I know that's true. Um, cause you know, it's fun. They also bash on Frodo quite a bit. They do bash on Frodo and I am almost always a further defender, but I totally get it. He's, um, he's not the most fun character to follow along his journey, but I respect him because I don't think I could do what he did. Yeah. And it's exactly that feeling of like, Oh, I did it, but also at the same time in books and movie alike, it is hard to watch his stuff.

You are struggling. And I don't, I don't think it's his fault. Um, I actually liked him. I think he's a very respectable character.

Um, and I'll defend him. Um, I, I think for me, at least he is properly rated. I wouldn't say he should probably fall in underrated.

I think he's actually underrated. Frodo is. That's why I kind of went for like the Bilbo because I feel like he was the original, like maybe we need a specific thing. Like maybe we need a hobbit and that I guess is the concept that I'm kind of like with Pippin and Mary and Frodo and Sam, I feel like are such a good pair. But like Pippin and Mary and Bilbo, I was kind of like, is there a defense of.

Yeah, we need this specific type of character that's not very powered and not very skilled and not very any of these things. But I think you had a bit of a defense for them. So yeah, I think that's all I had. Excellent. Oh, cool. Okay. All right. See you later. Okay. Bye guys.