Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia. Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, beatalons, and laffalons. We are excited to have you as a new friend on this journey with us. Welcome to Speak Friend and Enter a Lord of the Rings podcast. Hello, hello, hello, and welcome back.

Oh, welcome. To our Somerillian Chapter 11 and 12 review. I really like these two chapters.

What did you think, Lydia? Yeah, I'm very pleased with them. We have seen other chapters that had less action, and we will see more in the future. These ones had a lot going on in them.

First off, man. I was pretty excited for that. Skipping to Chapter 12. Yeah, that skips too quickly.

We have to start with 11. But yeah, lock going on with Feyenoor, lock going on with the elves, and the Valar, like, a lot to talk about. A lot to talk about. I'm excited.

Okay. From the top. Starting off digging in Chapter 11 of the Sun and Moon and the hiding of Valoranor. So I feel like this kind of sounds like, okay, we've been following the Noldor, we're following Feyenoor and all of his craziness up till now. And then this is kind of saying, meanwhile, in Valoranor, how have the Valar been handling all this?

How have they been doing it? Yeah, and their reaction is really interesting. I found their reaction really interesting. So in this middle first couple paragraphs here, there's a line that they dropped where it says Tolkien dropped this line like a sick beat. And it's, and they warned not more for the death of the trees than for the marina Feyenoor. So the big scene that happened last chapter was that Undolient comes in, drains the trees, Meltor gets away, it's bid, it's a bid deal and it's bad.

Yeah, it's a bid deal. So they've lost yet another light source. And yeah, this is like this interminable war that they're having with Meltor. So they've lost another light source. But I like this phrase because, I don't know, it kind of put, it was interesting to me that they put the Valar put losing literally all the light source in the world was the same to them as like the marina of one like Elven soul.

Because that's really what's happened to Feyenoor. He's not dead. He's just been marred.

He's just been a little bit twisted, a little bit bent, a little bit misdirected. And I thought it was really interesting that they David such a heavy weight. And they say of the works of Meltor, the most evil, right? They view his deception of Feyenoor because I mean, let's be honest, Feyenoor has kind of gone off the rocker.

Like he's been off the rocker since he was little. He killed other elves, right? They call it the elf slaying or something. Kinslaying, the first kinslaying.

The first kinslaying. Yeah. So he's gone, he's gone deep.

Yeah. And so after that paragraph about the morning, they have a long section here of Feyenoor was the mightiest in literally every possible way. Valar, endurance, beauty, understanding, still, strength, subtlety. Like I'm trying to think of like any one man. You're like, whoa.

Yeah. I'm trying to think of any one man who would compare. And all I'm coming to is Erdogan. But that's only because last time we were watching it, we're making lots of funny jokes about how wow, look at him. He's the perfect man. And then he would do something. I was like, wow, even his flaws make him more perfect. Look at his flaws. He's humble.

He's reticent to put on his crown. Like all those little funny feeds. Yeah. I just, he's, he's graceful in the face of unrequited love. Like, yeah, just any tiny flawed Erdogan is actually just another one of his majestic attributes.

And that's how, that's the way they talk about Feyenoor, which is really, it's really interesting to me. In, it makes me wonder, you know, what if we had a cool corrupted art for Erdogan? Thoughts. Actually, that would be so tough to see someone. Cause I guess, I guess, honestly, they've put so much foreboding around Feyenoor. I think I probably didn't see him in his full like potential. Because of the foreshadow. I did not see him as wow, the full glory of Elvendom, you know? But I think what they're saying here is here is someone with great potential. Right? And they're seeing either a really great future for them or a really sad future for them.

Or just lost. Yeah. Yeah. There's a line, not very long after this, where Mando says, to me shall Feyenoor come soon. And like, obviously, he knows his time is short.

You know, he can see down that timeline and he knows what's about to happen. So. Okay. I actually had a question for you. This was on the first page and I was a little bit confused by this.

So basically Feyenoor says, I think this is in some of the previous chapters, the Valar go to him, be a messenger, and they say, Hey, come back. Don't do this. Like if you do this, it's going to be whoa, it's going to be hard. And basically like, you won't be welcome here anymore.

Right? And he comes, he says, no, I'm not interested. And they're really sad. And so, but then at the last line of the first paragraph, Manway is kind of saying like, okay, so shall it be. But I don't understand this line. It says, Thus even as Eru spoke to us, shall beauty not before conceived be brought into Ea and evil yet be good to have been. I also had that line highlighted because I looked at it and I thought, I think my reading comprehension is just completely failing me here. The way I read it, like when I first read it, I read it as a kind of good comes out of evil. So even when evil does not repent, there can still be good coming out of it. And on the second and third read, I was like, I don't know if that's actually what he's saying, but that's what I got out of it. Yeah.

And that's because I'm what I'm getting an evil yet be good to have been. Yeah. Cause like, right? Yeah, exactly. Cause that the first up to the comma, it makes sense. Eru spoke to us and he said, beauty not before conceived shall be brought into the world.

That makes sense. We're about to get man. We're about to get future, future interesting happenings. Like there's a whole, yeah, there's creations we don't know about yet.

There's possibly like miracles we don't know about. Like, so he's trying to say that this isn't the end. Like there will be more beauty in the future. The world goes on and this last bit here and evil yet be good to have been. I kind of took that as the theme that I feel like Tolkien is working with in the book, which is, you know, you can't get rid of evil, but you can bend it towards your purpose and you can make good come out of it.

Yeah. And I don't know if that's actually what he meant. I actually googled this line and I could not get, I was like, yeah, you are not.

I was like, what is happening in this sentence? And I was not satisfied with the results I found. So I don't know. I was also wondering. I think it has that air of we know, even though this saddens us, these things need to come to pass. Yeah.

And yet, hopefully good and good things can still. That's what I took from it. Somebody correct us, please. I'm dying to know the actual meaning of this sentence.

Yeah. Oh, and then it goes into, I'd love to hear your thoughts. And then it goes into Yvanna and Niana getting the last little bit. They're trying to heal it. And when it fails, it says, Tauperian bore one upon a leafless bow, one great flower of silver and Laurel and a single fruit of gold. So they get the last fruit of gold and they do good work with it.

Yeah. Making the sun and the moon. I loved this part. It was cool.

Oh my gosh. I totally thought it was just going to be stars. I was like, oh, that's so cool. They're going to be like bright stars.

But then I was like, oh, no, it's the sun and the moon. Oh my goodness. Yeah.

Amazing. I mean, look at Yvanna. She's out here making a light source every other minute. She must be so sick of this.

She is. Well, I have no say. Do they have no one else who can do it? I don't know.

I don't know. She must be like, how did this get assigned to me? I know. I wonder if it's like when you're like a faculty on staff and you're like, oh yeah, I'll take care of that tiny small administrative thing and then it turns out that it's like 100% of the administrative burden. Oh my gosh.

Yeah. I'll take the edge case that never happens and then it turns out that Melchor just hates the light so much. You're making a light source every minute. It's like, why?

Why do you choose to hate me? But you know, I did think it was sweet though because you get the feeling that Yvanna loves her creations and so she's there nurturing the trees, trying to heal the trees. Well, she's trying to save them. Yeah, because Feynman wouldn't give them the Silmarillians. I think they had one real shot at it if they had used the Silmarillians and now she's like, well, it's interesting that they didn't give up because I don't get the sense that she felt like she had a chance, but she still tried and I thought that was nice.

She still tried and I thought it was so interesting. So, Nienna is known for like mercy, grief, you know, being there for people and so she cries, she's putting her efforts in and I also, I think of the trees and I know they're not necessarily, they have names, but they weren't necessarily sentient in these chapters, but I think that's so sweet that the trees are just like one last time, right? We're gonna put everything we have in us to bear this one flower for you, to bear this one fruit for you, right?

Like this is all that we have left in us and it kind of, it kind of drew a comparison to me. I mean, I feel like Feanor might get a bad rap, but also he's a little bit of a, he's entering his antihero villainous stage, so I'm coming for him a bit, but like Feanor created something and he was so selfish about it that he was like, no, I don't want to give you a piece of it or give any in return. I mean, it's possible that he only would have had to have a one of the Silmarillians.

Yeah, one of the Silmarillians. Yeah. And I just think it's so interesting that like these trees, obviously they're dying and they're saying, come back, give us a little more, you know, like stay with us and the trees are like, okay.

They're putting their best effort forward, yeah. The sentence after that was pretty touching too, where it says, the trees died and their lifeless stems stand yet in Valinor, a memorial of vanished joy. What an interesting memorial. Yeah. Like these are the old sun and moon. Yeah. That's cool.

And I think it's so cool. So then it says Yvonne gave to Owl-A and Manway hollowed them, and Owl-A and his people made vessels to hold them and to preserve their radiance. And I just think, oh, power couple, we've left Owl-A and Yvonne before, but they're, they're creators. They're amazing.

We've got some teamwork happening here. Yeah, they're amazing. And then they had the song of the sun and the moon and they outshone the ancient stars. Yeah, just really beautiful. And quick turnaround, because I thought this was going to take them another like age to get some kind of light source.

They do make this sound really fast. Yeah. Yeah, because right after this, we start getting, it's the time for Man, and Man wakes up on the day the sun rises, I think. Yeah. Yeah. Or so close to.

Or very close to. Yeah. There's a really interesting note I thought here. So the chapter title was like the hiding of the Valar. And this little sentence talks about maybe why they were hiding and not going after Melkor. So it says, even as a Valar made war upon Melkor for the sake of the Quendi for the elves. So now for that time, they for bore for the sake of the Hildor, the aftertummers, the underchildren of Illuitar.

So for Man. And I think, I wonder how much they were pre-worn. So, you know, they made war for the elves. And then maybe they thought, well, Man, we just, we just don't know enough about them.

Are they like really frail? You know, if I set my lava this way and I bring down a mountain over here, is it just trying to destroy them? Or maybe they're just like, we don't know where they are yet.

We don't, we're worried that we would hurt them if we went out and did bitfings. So I thought that was interesting because, you know, a lot has happened here. I think it would have been hard to wait and not go after Melkor. Well, and I don't know where exactly if it's in this chapter or in the other chapter. But I thought, I thought it said somewhere that they were like, they didn't, because the elves woke up in darkness and they just had the stars, right? And I thought it said somewhere like, they didn't want them to kind of be born in the dark. Oh, okay. Similar to like the passage.

If we see it as we pass through, we'll make a note of it. The elves. I think you're right. It was like they wanted them, they wanted them to have light. Like they didn't want them to be alone in the darkness. Yeah.

There's an uncharitable. Which means this was a top priority for them. Yeah, there's an uncharitable reading of that, which is that the elves had complained for millennia about it. Yeah, remember that time we woke up and it was dark?

And it was all alone and the dark and you weren't there. Yeah. Or maybe like elves have like a genetic fear of the dark at this point. They're like, all right, we can do better with the second child. But anything is, they actually like it. Like they talk about the dark elves that love the stars. So it was a positive thing for them.

Maybe even that angle is it. You know, they're like, all right, remember how hard it was to get the elves of Valinor? Maybe if they're born with light, they'll remember that it's cool here.

Yeah. Something else I thought was so interesting as we were talking about the light source because they went into deep, deep talks about like how they decided that the sun would, you know, circle back and around and how the moon would also go in that specific pattern. And but it was more wavery than the sun and all this stuff.

And I thought it was so interesting to think about how this is, they said a lesser light source, right? This is just one fruit, one flower preserved. But also they said that was less, it was damaged by Angolian's poison. It would have been, it's less than a simeral. A simeral would have been brighter than this little fruit and this little flower. That's crazy to think of. Faina Watt and I with a couple of suns on his forehead. That's just insane to me because I was thinking about the trees and I was like, was there just constant light?

I think so. Like it was just, it was just always the glory of multiple suns and moons going on. Like how bright are we talking about?

And then like a simeral, if that would have been a better, that would have been a brighter option. I don't know. I just. The actual sun and moon. Yeah.

The actual sun. That is a good point. It was kind of shock to me. I love that. I love the names that he gave the sun and moon. So we have Rana, the wayward and Vasa, the heart of fire. Just so epic.

Very poetic. You did say that he goes to quite a few lengths to like talk about like, oh yeah, I know this is, this is the sun, this is the moon. They're being drawn like, no, Helios on a chariot essentially.

Yeah, yeah. So it's very Greek. I thought there were a couple notes here. So I thought it was really interesting. The sun was drawn by a girl, Arian, and the moon by Tillion.

I thought that was an interesting reversal because I don't know about the Greeks, but I guess nowadays, I mean, I would think of the moon as like Luna and the sun as soul. Yeah. Kind of more feminine, but. Yeah.

And I don't know if that's true or if that's just something that I don't know where I would have gotten that. But yeah, I do, I do feel like that was a reversal. And then I really liked this line that he has about Arian, who is the one who is guiding the sun, says that she's a spirit of fire. So being from the beginning, a spirit of fire whom Meltor had not deceived nor drawn into his service. And that was cool because one, it made it sound like she was pretty much the only one that hadn't been deceived.

Two, I was thinking, cool, Proto Balrog. It just puts it to, yeah, it puts the stale like the power of this maiden, as they call her, who is who is being tasked with this. And I thought it was so interesting is that she was chosen because she was not scared of the heats of Laurel and right. She's like, I can take it.

Yes. And then to go back to your point about the Silmaril potentially being that hot, being brighter. I don't know if it'd be hot, but like day. I also liked how he had to do this lawn spiel about like, you know, how does the moon and sun work, et cetera? And he couldn't leave off without having talked about eclipses. So even as the moon rose above the darkness in the West, fiendolfin.

Oh wait, I'm sorry, Ron Lyne. Where is it? Ah, that's later. I can't find it. He had a lot about the pattern of his journey. Oh, here it is.

I had to strip one down. So it says, at times it will chance that Tilly and come so nigh that his shadow cuts off her brightness and there is a darkness amid the day that was like three paragraphs down. So yeah, I just love that he had to talk about eclipses. And he had to because I mean, I've been reading a lot of like old history stuff. Eclipses are such a big deal.

So many big events happened on eclipses because, you know, people be getting ready for battle and they'd be like, Oh, Spooty, the sun is gone. Maybe better not. I would be Spooty. I would be Spooty too. I'd be like, okay, maybe this is a sign that I should or should not be doing whatever it is I'm doing right now.

So like lots of big decisions are made on eclipses or on account of eclipses, I should say. So yeah, I love that he said that. I just love, okay, I don't know. Maybe I was I was getting different vibes here, but I feel like Tilly and kind of has like a crush on Ariane.

Oh, for sure. But Tilly and was wayward and uncertain and speed and held on to his appointed path and he sought to come near to Ariane. Being drawn by her splendor.

Ariane is 100%. I'm on a mission. I'm ready. The cool girl. Yeah. She's driving fast. She's driving hard. She's driving straight and Tilly's like, Yo, hey, wait up for me.

Hello there. Yeah, 100% either that or he was drunk all the time. So I don't know. His vibes are different than hers.

For sure. He comes from the Toltus school of the Valar. And she comes from very serious man wave vibes, I think. Yeah. And it's just, yeah, it's so funny because I think he was using that to kind of describe like the, the, I don't know, you think of the moon and you think it's, it's, it's, it's different cycles of it. Yeah, exactly. It's very, it's very, yeah, it's like kind of uncertain.

Yeah. But I love that he assigned it to this dude. And I'm like, tell me more about why he's like this. And I think they say, oh, sorry. I don't finish your thought. I was just going to say, I feel like they were like, and they assigned it to this dude because he liked silver. And I'm like, Oh, okay.

We actually did point. They're like looking out across the sea of what are these? Are these Maya? These are Maya.

Yeah. So they're looking at, they're like, we need volunteers for an exciting new job. Somebody who's not afraid of fire.

Anyone? And, and then the other one is like, and anyone who likes silver. So one is like a really appealing job post-it and the other one is just not. Yeah. And the girl seems so qualified.

Right? Like, she's like, I'm a spirit of fire. I'm a major in this. He like, I can, I'm qualified to do this, right? I took care of the trees. And he was just like, I like silver.

And then it says, and he begged to be given the task of tending forever the last flower of silver. And I just think that's so funny where it's just like, yes, they are CP to anyone to get the sun. They're like, we need someone bad. We need someone qualified. We need somebody fit.

And he's like, please, please give me this other role. What about me? So funny. Anyways, not to beat up on him too much, but it is a funny vibe difference between the two.

I love that. There's a nice time marker in here. So right about, right before the other paragraph that I said, it says, even as a moon rose above the darkness in the West, fiend, let blow his silver trumpets and he began his march into Middle Earth and the shadows of his host went long and black before them.

So we know how that went. And it's so interesting because it talks about, so Morgoth's reaction too, right? So they say, okay, we put all these things in the sky.

We want to have this there for men when men come out. And then you get, you know, the engulfing and you get Morgoth's reaction. Obviously hating the new lights, while confounded by this unlooked for stroke of the valor. Honestly, he probably thought, I just drained your trees.

You're not gonna be able to do anything for like an age or two. It is interesting to call it unlooked for. So yeah, either they were extra fast or he really thought they had no other tricks under their sleeves, you know? Yeah.

Where else do they wanna be a light for him? I took it all. Yeah.

I totally took it. And so I feel like he's probably a little bit, because also the simerals. I would be miffed if I was him and I saw some new lights. Yeah, obviously the simerals are crazy, whatever brightness level they are. But to be able to have something semi-comparable in a short period of time when he's like, I thought I took that from you, right? Like I desolated light from you.

I don't know. So he was not pleased. So I thought it was interesting that he called out specifically how Mordoth feared Arian. Arian, how are we saying her name? Arian. Arian? Yeah.

Do, do, do, do, do. Mordoth feared her with a great fear, but dared not to deny her, having indeed no longer the power for as he drew in malice and sent forth from himself the evil that he conceived in lies and creatures of wickedness. His might passed into them and was dispersed. That was very interesting to me. We've seen similar like intimations before about how Mordoth, his, his, he's losing his power.

He's, he's, I just spent the hour. And I was wondering, it doesn't seem to be the case for Irhu Aluvatar that he is diminishing in power. So it does this speech to something about the way he's creating the fact that he has to twist things that it maybe is not true creation. What do you think? I was just thinking about that. Yeah, that's an excellent point because, oh man, A'ole, A'ole, A'ole.

Yeah. He also creates so much. Do we read about him becoming diminished? I don't, I don't think we have so far.

And it's so interesting. We'll have to pay attention and see. It sounds like Mordoth is kind of almost giving his, because we talked about, Mordoth actually created a lot of pretty cool things. He has been busy, yes. He's been busy.

But he's not a giving person. So it can't be on purpose that this is happening. It's not like he's thinking. He's doing it for himself.

But he's not thinking, oh, I don't need this power. I'm going to, you know, snip it off of my own self and put it onto you. It must be part of the process. And it's just, it's stated outright with him that he's diminishing. And we don't see it with the others and it made me very curious. Yeah. And so I don't know if that's because, like, Aulay is getting, Aulay is getting his power from a higher source, right? And so he's getting replenished.

Sure. Or if because what he is giving is somehow from the generosity, yeah, the generosity and goodness of his heart. Whereas the power that Mordoth is giving is very much like, and then you will be used by me, right?

Like you belong to me and are there for an extension, almost of me. I don't know. Yeah, it's curious. I do think that's really interesting though. All right.

And then we got, you know, Mordoth trying to ruin themes as usual. Of course. The next scene I have is Oh, I love also how he's like, he didn't mess with Ariane, but he assaulted Tilly. Oh yeah.

He's like, that dude, that dude I can take. Yeah, I love this. I don't know. I guess I'm thinking of Tilly that's just like this.

I don't I guess he's just a stiny boy. Apparently we can defenceless. But he got he got out. He figured it out, but I just think that's hilarious. OK. OK, I think where we are here. Sorry. I'm trying to remember why I highlighted this section. Yeah, what is happening here?

Doot, doot, doot, doot. Let's see. So Mordoth sees the new light, he reacts to it.

He's like, oh, the moon, I could go after the moon. Oh, OK. So I have here it's it's quite close to the end of this chapter. And I think they are hiding Valinor.

Yes, they're enchanting. OK, yeah, yeah, yeah. This is a contest. I've got it.

So they're enchanting Valinor. And I really like the way it's phrased. So it says, and in it in the twilight, a great wariness came upon mariner's mariner's.

How do you say that word? Mariner's. OK, Kevin's. Somebody knows how to say words.

Mariner's. I am cursed with the inability to pronounce words correctly. It's really a struggle.

I have that all the time. So a great wariness came upon mariner's and a loathing of the sea. But all that ever set foot upon the islands where they're entrapped and slept until the change of the world. So there is like a set of aisles that some people were on. And it sounds like something out of the Odyssey, like the lotus eaters. I was going to say, like that reminder, it was at the Odyssey where people fell asleep on that island. I believe so. And I realized a couple of things.

One, it's really interesting that these random people on this island were like, yep, you were here when we were enchanting things. So now you must sleep forever. Get wrecked. Screw your families.

And then the other ones I thought it was really interesting that the mariner's like just people who love the sea were cursed with a loathing of the sea. How do you go out too close? Yeah, how do you go from one end to the other so quickly? That's really cool. And then I realized I don't know exactly what the change of the world is.

Do you? Till the change of the world, I'm assuming this is like second coming. That's the vibe I'm getting. All this kind of glass or whatever that that phrase.

Yeah, because there's the thought process that Morgoth eventually comes out from like outer darkness. This is the vibe. Right. Like and he comes back for this final. OK, this final.

That's what I was thinking too. So man, good luck to those lotus eaters. They're going to sleep a long time.

It's a long time. But maybe they need to sleep because when that time comes, nobody will remember how to sail. So they're like, OK, we've got to like these dudes in to cry. So that when the time comes that we can build that, we need to build the fleet will be ready.

You know, and it's so interesting to me that they were like, OK, we're defending ourselves in all of these ways because it makes me think about the elves that are then going west and sailing to Valor. And they're making it seem like this is the last boat. Like you want to get on with us. And I always thought, why can't someone else take another boat?

And I'm I'm getting the vibe. Either the Valor, the Valor have said, OK, these boats are blessed and you people are blessed, the elves can return home. Or the elves are the only ones that know the payroll. My understanding is that they can make it.

Elves have some kind of special privilege. Yeah, I've read snippets around that seem like that's the direction of it. But I thought it was really interesting here. I missed the section where they're they're creating new islands.

They're like basically putting up obstacles. That's how I read it. The enchanted aisles were set like cast into the ocean like a net. That was cool. And then I don't know what this foreshadowing is. Maybe you know the last pair of the last sentence here. To do to do.

What is it? And of the many messengers that in after days, sailed into the West, none came ever to Valor, save one only. The mighty, mightiest mariner of sawn.

Who the heck is that? Do we think I could be wrong, but I think that's Alendil. So basically, my understanding of the general outline of the Somerilian is that things get so rough between the elves and men finding off Morgoth that Alendil, he's a man and he's a mariner, sails to Valor and he says, help, please help us. And that's how the Valar get involved in the second time. I see. OK, I like that a lot.

That's cool, because they've gone to all these great lengths to prevent anyone from coming to the fact that he made it. That that was like an emergency. Yeah, SOS, sail for help.

And so they call him like a really great mariner. Yeah, very good. OK. Cool, we'll see if that's correct. I like your guess.

We shall see. Yeah, what are we on? Chapter 12 of that uses to chapter 12 of men.

Isn't that a good chapter title? Oh, epic. OK, yeah, so the Valar sat now behind their mountains at peace.

Yep. And the setting here is that Morgoth Morgoth was uncontested, saved by the Noldor, which was interesting. They call it the Valar of the Valar of the Noldor, which I guess is still technically true, but they are progressively naughtier and naughtier. So we'll see how long that Valar lasts them.

Yeah, they're brave, but I feel like their morals could be questioned. This is an interesting line. So from this time forth, from this time forth, we're reckoned the years of the sun, swifter and briefer are they than the long years of the trees?

Bloody, bloody, blah. And the changing and aging of all things was hastened. Exceedingly, that is so interesting. Imagine being an elf or really anyone who was a little bit long lived, which was everyone. And then all of a sudden, the sun and the moon rise and you're thinking, yeah, this is great.

I love light. And then you notice that things start to die faster. Wouldn't that be wild?

You're here speed up. That would be crazy. That would be crazy.

And I don't know. I thought those I thought that was very interesting. It kind of felt to me like either it wasn't clear to me if the Valor were doing this, if they were the cause or if it was a Rue Louveter. But it made me feel like somebody didn't want man to feel alone. Didn't want them to feel like they were the only mortal scenes. You know, they wanted they wanted man to see life, you know, to at least have something to look at that had a shorter lifespan than them. Imagine if even the deer lived longer than you. That'd be wild.

I almost get the vibe and I could be wrong here, too, but almost like seasons started shifting. Sure. In and out sooner. Sure.

So like, I wonder if before, like with longer years, like maybe spring or fall or everything, it'll just last longer and you would see fewer of it. Right. And then they had to your point.

They had to say, like, look, we've got to speed things up. We can't just have men seen one winter in their whole lives. That would be wild. Oh, my goodness. Reminds me of a Game of Thrones. So I have to come in the idea of the one the 500 year winter, whatever.

It's exactly singular winter. I don't know. I mean, obviously, he needs to finish the books. So hopefully he does someday. But the concept there of the eternal winter is really cool. I think about that one fairly often, like, could mankind actually survive a winter that long? Like, you're not getting crops.

What are you eating? I don't know how people survive the ice age. I'm like, they're humans. Yeah. I can't believe it. I mean, I guess you ate mammoth every day for all 20 of your years.

But like, I would wear the mammoth. I feel like otherwise. Yeah, I just don't know how you. It blows my mind. So I guess it's possible. You're right.

I forgot about the ice age. Did you see what have we gotten here? I have a few snippets, not as many as the last one. There are a couple of interesting things.

Yeah, yeah. Mostly they're just talking about like just times are changing, you know? I thought it was interesting. So it talks about the rising of the sun and they say, I think it's really sweet because they have the younger children of a Louvitar woke.

Yes. Or the Hildorian. And then they start talking about the names that the other names. And they're all like slightly critical.

The second people, the followers. So it starts off polite. It starts off polite.

It's amazing. It's like, and as we as we slowly get into less and less polite company, yeah, you get you surfer, stranger, self-cursed. What? The sickly. Can you imagine?

It's just like hanging out with a bunch of else is like, yeah, I was over visiting the sickly the other day. And guess what? This one told me.

The Night Fears, which is true, I get scared at night. And this one was nice. So the Children of the Sun. Yes, I like that one. But it just made me laugh because you start with like these kind of very nice normal names of and then it's like, and then the elves started naming them. I'm like, man, these elves.

No wonder people, the doors don't like the humans don't trust us. We were watching Lord of the Rings recently, right? And so at the beginning when I guess it's the gladiator's voice is giving the voice over at the beginning. And it's like, three rings were given to the elves and then this many to the doors and this many to man who above all love power. And we're all like, says the elf. Yeah, you're like little biased. Maybe a little.

I really enjoy. I forgot to mark this. I was trying to find my markings that I couldn't. But there's a section right after that one where it talks about how the relationship of like man to the Valor was very different. They did not understand them. It says they were at variance with them. And, you know, yeah, they didn't love them.

They feared them. So that was interesting. They were going to I'm curious to see how that plays out. Obviously it'll be interesting when Elendil because when Elendil comes to plea, plea the case. So yeah.

And I'm curious too, because so when elves woke up, once they found them, which was a little delayed, a room came and said, basically, come home, come to Valor. But then I wonder if they're looking at Feynur and they're like, it didn't work out great. Yeah. And so I almost get the impression that they're saying what if we let them be. We gave light. So they have light. They have land.

And if they're saying maybe we try a different strategy, maybe we let them live on their own rather than because it caused a great divide in the elves. Half of them came, half of them didn't. They had that whole battle about you're keeping us here.

We're going to leave you. Like I wonder if they thought we just let them have their freedom and agency. Maybe. Yeah, I don't know. And it's also possible that they were simply not as interested in them. Yeah, they do make note in earlier chapters like, wow, the Valor really loved the Quendi and it's possible they just did not love man as much. But it says almost took thought for them. Yeah, he did.

Yeah, that was cute. And it's like the council in Willow Manway. And they he's sending the messages in the rivers and the oceans. And like they're like halfway getting received. They're like, oh, we don't really get it. But like it's filling our hearts with joy. They're like, we love the water. I wonder why I almost like it's because of me fools. He's trying to communicate with them and they're just like, I just love water.

He's like, you idiot. I like this line where it's talking about the difference between the elves. Like you said, the Stism, the elves that went to Valor versus the ones that didn't.

And we mentioned this before. I think it's really fun how Tolton calls the elves who have not seen the light of the trees, he calls them dark elves. Just in a different place, that would mean something so different, which sounds ominous. It sounds very ominous. But yeah, but I just means they love the night.

Yeah, I guess we'll see. Maybe they do evil. So I like how he says this. He says, and those who had dwelt in Valor and looked upon the powers as much surpassed the dark elves in these scenes as they in turn surpassed the people of mortal race. So they're talking about the elves having had greater wisdom, still and beauty. And that was an interesting, almost a task system here where you've got the elves that went to Valor, then you have dark elves, noticeably less.

And then you have the. And you would say that the difference between a human and an elf is very noticeable, I would think. Yeah. And so the idea that the difference between a dark elf and an elf that's been to Valor or being equally obvious, that was very interesting to me. And I wonder if we will have some conflict over that.

You know what I thought is interesting? And so they were talking about like the Noldor versus the Cinderan. I think this might be later on as well. But basically the Noldor, that's Galadriel, right? But then the Cinderan, I'm pretty sure that's Legolas. I think so. I think so. And so that's what I was trying to remember, like Thranduul and like Legolas. Yeah, they're wood elves.

I think you're right. And so it's interesting because they are glorious to behold, right? They're very stunning. But I do think they did a good job in the movies of like when you see Galadriel. It seems like something else. It's like, whoa, even Arwen and she's like kind of, I think she's part. She would have also been Cinderan part Noldor. Galadriel is her grandma, which is weird.

She's her grandma. So Galadriel saw the trees, but she would not have it because she would not have been born yet. She would not have seen the trees, but Galadriel is on it. She did see the trees and she's just on a different wavelength, even from the other elves. Yeah, she's just.

I would agree that she comes off that way in the movies, at least. Yeah, they lit her differently, right? They. Yeah.

Yeah, they're lighting Legolas up, but they're not lighting him up with the force of 10,000 suns. Yeah. Yeah, very interesting. To do. Let's see what else we have here. They're basically, I feel like it's just saying there's a lot of stuff going on between elves and men. There's a lot of history. They talk about like them becoming like man becoming companions to like the dark elves and like. Yeah, they go through the differences between elves and man. It's most of that we have seen most of that before, I think. I found I mean, I'm already at the end here of this chapter. So catch me if there's anything else we missed. I thought this last line was interesting because we did to name drop a dude we love.

Do, do, do, do, do. And in the glory and beauty of the elves and in their fate, full share had the ospion of Elf and mortal. Arendelle and Elwing and Elvron their child.

No mention of anything else he's going to do. But I was like, dang, here he is first mentioned. And that's Arendelle.

His dad was the Mariner. Is it? But Elvondale versus Arendelle. Are these the same guy? I thought it was Elvondil, the Mariner. Oh, maybe I'm wrong. I could be wrong.

I don't know. I was really caught off guard because I did not realize that Elvond was half elf, but I guess he's half of how human. And I just from their perspective, their perspective that meets him mostly elf, because, you know, he's talking about a full share of everything, all the glory and the beauty go to him. Fascinating.

So I looked at that. He's a twin. He's a twin. Elvond's a twin. Well, why don't they mention the other twin? Okay. Because apparently one child.

When I know, I guess what I did think is funny, they didn't mention him here. But when you have half elf, half human, your children get to decide what type of life they live. Is that why Elvond has the choice? I think I don't know if that has to do with her descendancy having some human in it. I thought that was just her saying.

Well, they made it. I'm going to. I need to reread the books again. Yeah, I need to reread the books again, because I guess she would also be half of I guess. No, unless you married an elf, then she'd be like quarter.

Quarter, I guess. But it makes me wonder if that's why she has the explicit choice of I choose a mortal life, right? That might be what they were trying to reference. Yeah, that's interesting. Do we find out about that whole their ability to choose in the Somerillian or is that something else you read? You know, I found that online when I was reading about Elrond and like Elendil and stuff. I think they might talk about that when they get to Elendil and his family and kind of descendants.

Yeah, that's because Elrond's brother chose mortal life. Like from the. And he. Yeah. And he's he's a predecessor to some of the lines of Numenor. All right.

So that Aragorn is descended. That is interesting. I mean, obviously you probably chose when he was an adult, like not just like a little kid, but it's interesting. I don't know. I just want to know more about how that choice works. Yeah. And that you get to choose. Like that's interesting. The way I would do it is I would say, OK, well, I've lived a couple of millennia.

I guess it's time for me to choose a mortal life now. But that's that's the backhanded easy way of doing it. Whereas it sounds it sounds like he chose out of much younger age. Yeah. Well, a Numenorean lifespan. They were still long. They were long. Yeah.

They were long, but it's just not the same level. Very good. Well, I'm excited for Elrond. I'm excited for Elrond. I'm excited for more. We shall see.

We shall see how things progress, how things continue. But all in all, an excellent couple of chapters. And we'll be back for more. We'll be back for more.

We've got to finish it sometime. Thanks for joining us, guys. Take care. Bye.