Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia. Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, beatalons and laffalons. We are excited to have you as a new friend on this journey with us. Welcome to Speak Friend and Enter a Lord of the Rings podcast. Hello, hello. Welcome back. Alright, we're here with chapters 13 and 14.

Yay! We will eventually get through this book. We're chugging.

I'm feeling good about it. It is weird to me to read like two chapters at a time because I'm used to just like blasting through stuff. So, fortunately, we had like a little cliffhanger at the end.

We're like, oh, Elrond, what will he do? Never mentioned it again. But at least good things happen. So we have a lot going on in here. Yeah, I loved it.

One of my favorite myths is mentioned. It's a good time. So we're back with Feanor.

Feanor and Sons. I like to think of them as like a plumbing company or something. They're bound by the same terrible promise.

Yes. So Feanor and Sons and we're talking about, you know, how they've, oh man, they're just up to no good. So they're marching. They're getting it.

They're like going all over. They're fighting orcs. I like, I like this line with their first encounter with orcs.

And maybe it's their first, I think it is. It says, the noldor outnumbered and taking out unawares were yet swiftly victorious for the light of Amon was not yet dimmed in their eyes. And they were strong and swift and deadly and anger and their swords were long and terrible. And like, these are swords that they only recently made, right? It's not like they've always had swords.

This is recent. But I love the light of Amon was not yet dimmed in their eyes, which to me implies that it will be dimmed. Yeah. So that is interesting to me.

You get the feeling even though they were like, we're leaving Valoran or we're going to go back home, all this stuff, like because they were in Valoran, they're strong. Yes. Like they're different. And I think they're going to lose some of that advantage. Yeah. And I think they're taking it for granted now. I think they are. So I'll be curious to see how they fair against, you know, this feels like just a rabble of orcs like, you know, Meltor is not sending his best. They're not as put together as they could be. I will be interested to see later battles, how they're fairing, you know.

All right, this section is great. So we're having a bunch of battles. And then we get to Feyenoor Feyenoor is just mad all the time.

Always. So it talks about his attitude and just like the way he portrays himself. Nothing did he know of Anbad or the great strength of defense that Morgoth had so swiftly prepared. So Morgoth has hunted down and he's like, he's in his fortifications. He's ready. He's building his army. Yeah. He's feeling good about it. So Feyenoor doesn't know about this.

But even had he known, it would not have deterred him for he was Fey, consumed by the flame of his own wrath. And I just lost them. I was like, Dane, what a good line. What a wonderful line.

He just really brings out these banners all the time. I'm very jealous. It's a good line.

It is. And it's so interesting because it really paints a picture of who he is of like, he didn't. So they land on the shore, they get attacked by orcs and Feyenoor is like, I could do this all day. Right?

Like keep I'm going for my Semerals keep coming at me. And it says he didn't know about Ingban, Ingbad. But even if he did, it wouldn't matter. Right?

Like he would have kept trucking forward. I think that's so fascinating. Yeah. And I liked the use of this word Fey because I just, I don't know. I just feel like it's been kind of corrupted. We've had, we've read a few too many romantices where I look at them like, part of this pretty boy is Fey, you know, because to me that has a very specific connotation. Omniscient. Omniscient, wild, crazy, like. Trickster. Yeah.

Trickster, exactly. Just like an edge of madness to it. Yeah. And I think it does say something even more explicit about it later on.

But I enjoy that. Like that gave me a real vision of him in my mind. I was like, whoa, you know, somebody where you at first glance, you don't think anything weird about it, right? Because that's almost what the glamour is, right? Like at first glance, things are smooth over. But when you look closer, you're like, whoa, that is strange.

Something is wrong here. Yeah. So I loved that.

And the flame of his own wrath. I mean, come on, how do you do better than that? That's such a good phrase.

So yeah, very good. There's another line that did drop later. Feynor was surrounded with few friends about him. Lawn he fought on and undismayed, for he was wrapped in fire and wounded with many wounds. But at the last he was smitten to the ground by Gothmog, Lord of Balrogs, whom at Felyon after slew in Gondolin. So we get to the death of Feynter, which is a big moment.

But just the way it's portrayed, he is alone with few friends around him and undismayed. Wild. Biting for it. Like, I don't know.

Yeah. You get the picture of almost like a lion or a tiger, something very powerful. But like, he's so crazy. Crazy. Also, when we're talking about like how much strength these people had coming from Valinor, he was fighting off a freaking Valorok. I know.

Like, what? That's insane. Yeah. And I will admit, I was caught by surprise here. I was not expecting death of Feynter.

Yeah. I don't know why I thought he would tarry all the way through till the end of the Silmarillion. It seemed so quick for something that drove his life. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, I was not expecting that. So his sons removed him from the battlefield. And then it says, then he died, but he had neither burial nor tomb. For so fiery was his spirit that as it sped, his body fell to ash and was born away like smoke. Incredible.

And then they talked about some other stuff. And this is, we kind of talked about this while ago, and I don't know if we ever came to an answer, but it says his likeness has never appeared in Arda. Neither has his spirit left the Hall of Demand.

So like reincarnation, the elves have it? I didn't. That's the implication that I got from there.

And I guess I just need to sit down and do some doodling. Because there was some other passage a couple of chapters ago that also made it seem like maybe reincarnation was a theme for them because they're expecting, oh yeah, his spirit will come again. And like, this spirit?

No. This spirit is sitting in the halls and waiting and maybe waiting until the, you know, waiting until the end times. Maybe that's it. Maybe it's like it's kind of in the waiting for the end, the final battle.

Yeah, I don't know. I liked the epilogue that or the epitaph that they sort of gave for him, which was thus ended the mightiest of the Noldor of whose deeds came both their greatest for known and their most grievous woe. And that is epic. To be known for both your good and evil, love that for him.

So unfortunately, Feyenoord goes out with a good note for me. I was like, yeah, he's cool. Then I go back to read the other stuff. I was like, oh, he's not. He's that dude. He lives up to his, uh, I feel like he, yeah, he lived up to the reputation like the foreshadowing because he was heavily foreshadowed. And there are people who are, who are foreshadowed and who do not live up to the reputation. We're in the middle of reading the, uh, Livy. So we're reading about Hannibal and, you know, the Punic Wars and all this. Let me tell you, Hannibal does not live up to his reputation. Oh, no.

Do you have any further study? Yeah. He does like three really cool scenes. And the rest of us like, my dude, what were you thinking?

Why are you like this? Amazing. So it is nice to have somebody live up to the reputation. I've been disappointed recently. Well, and I think it's reputation, you know, that foreshadowing continues to live on because his sons are going to continue this. Oh, that he has like gotten the whole family. His sons have to continue the oath. Um, I love the implication and I don't know if it's just for the elves or if it's true for everyone at this stage in the world, but I love the implication that like, oaths are binding and you gotta watch out. You gotta be careful. Like if you, if you make an oath, you're gonna have to fulfill it. And it sounds like it's just the world of Lord of the Reans or at least maybe this particular age where this is true because we see this with like the men under the mountain. Yeah.

They made an oath and they're just normal dudes. Yeah. And it's coming for you. Right. Yeah. And it came for them. So, um, there's a book way back when, what was it? It's called Crispin and I don't remember the author and it's about, it's set in the medieval times and it's, it's about some young boy and things happen that I don't recall.

I read it when I was like, eight. Um, but a critical moment that I recall from there is that he is made to swear an oath that is like not to his advantage and he's made to swear it like at force or what's the word, he's coerced. Yeah. Um, and I remember being so mad that entire book because it was like, Crispin, that guy made you swear the oath. You don't have to do it, but he did. He was like, that was the attitude of medieval times as well.

If you swore an oath, you had to keep it. So this is like, um, just like, it feels like the tail end of like the third age, you know, as you did into medieval times. So that was a fun theme for me to read.

I was like, oh, it's just like Crispin. I don't remember the rest of the part of that, but it was good. So then it goes into the suns who we're speaking about and really see their life back on the mainland. And how it's going for them, which it isn't. I thought it was interesting that even in the hour of the death of Feanor, an embassy comes to his sons from Morgoth, acknowledging defeat and offering terms even to the surrender of a Silmaril. And so that's interesting. What are we, are we going to treat with him or not? Yeah. Yeah. And then Majros, he seems to be like the main character, the main son, best son.

He persuades his brothers to feign to treat with Morgoth and to meet his emissaries, but they had as little thought of faith as he had. And I love that. Like both sides going in, all smiles.

Yeah, of course, for me. And they, they both know now we're here to battle. They know. Yeah.

There's only one way this actually ends. And even, yeah. So even knowing that though, Majros is ambushed. And this is, this is the time.

Yeah. This is when Morgoth tapes him hostage. I loved this story.

This story was cool. Massive Promethean vibes here. Oh my goodness. Yeah.

Yeah. Morgoth took Majros and hunt him from the face of a precipice upon Thandorodrim, I think the mountain. And he was caught to the rock by the wrist of his right hand in a band of steel. Awful. Can you imagine just one wrist? I feel like your, your hand would start disjointing from here. Like, I don't know how you could stay there. I mean, this is the curse of immortality. He's just made a little sturdier, you know? Oh my gosh.

It's made clear later. So like the suns now have lost Majros. And there, it sounds like they're a little bit, you know, the little, having a hard time. Oh, there's another line here. I should, man, I should have put more notes in here. I'm like, Stimmy.

And I was like, Ooh, that was a good like, why did I write that one down? So the elves go to Aimbod and they challenge like the might of Morgoth. They, they, they sound their trumpets and it says, Majros heard them amid his torment and cry to allowed, but his voice was lost in the echoes of the stone. That is so sad that he, he knows they're there. He knows that they're close. He wants them to come save him, but they've lost him.

They can't find him. Yeah. And, and they, they made this attack, but they, they don't hold the ground, right?

They don't, they don't hold ground there. Oh, and I think it's important to mention, so this band of elves comes up to the gate and sounds a horn, but these are not his brothers. Oh, you're right. It's been golfing. This is been golfing.

The people that they left on the other side of the icy water and said, we're burning the ships. Find your own way. Yes. Oh, the brutality.

Yeah. So they come in and they make a bid to do, but they don't stay. They don't hold the ground. And I think that was probably wise of them. I think, I think they would have gotten some nasty, like, I don't know, ball rod ambushes in the night if they had stuck around a little bit too long. You're right.

It is fiendle fin. And then, you know, as you carry on here, it talks about how like the noldor and them, it sounds like they know that, like, they're in roughly the same area, but there's just that, that, that schism. They're not, they, nobody is really willing to heal that divide.

Yeah. Until we have fiend on and fiend on does it. And I liked his, I liked his title, fiend on the valiant son of fiendle fin resolved to heal the feud that divided the noldor. And it sounds like he and maedros were buds. Was it maedros when feanor was burning the shifts where he's like, yeah. So like when they first set sell and they did to the other side, was it maedros who turned him and said, Hey, yeah, all right, now it's time to send the ships back for our friends.

I got that impression that that's what he said is like, because it said that the gulf and son fin gone didn't know that maedros had thought of him, right? Like thought of this. Yes. Yes.

Yes. So it was. And I really liked that. I really liked that this kind of deed that maedros tried to make happen is essentially being rewarded here because fiend on goes on a hunt and he goes looking for him. And it's not really clear to me how he is doing this.

It sounds like he's just climbing alone in these mountains. Which is kind of, yeah. But like, dude, how long did it take him to do that?

I don't know. So but he found him by seeing and I thought that was really, really beautiful. And that there was enough in maedros to sink back, right? That's how he how he located him. Yeah. So he locates him. And as soon as he does, maedros instantly goes the other way and says, Hey, I need you to shoot me right now.

Like put me out of my misery. I mean, it's dark fast. Honestly, it doesn't say how long of a time period you get the impression that fengolfin's kind of moved in.

There's this awkwardness. This could be talking weeks, months, years. It could be a long time.

Yeah, it's not clear to me how long this is. And yeah, so maedros says, Hey, I need you to shoot me and fiend on is like, Okay, I'm gonna do it. So he has strung the arrow and bent the bow. He's ready to do it. And he cries a prayer to Monway and says, Oh, pain to home all birds are dear. What an interesting like epithet.

That's fun. Speed now this feathered shaft and recall some pity for the noldor in their need. And his prayers answered by an eagle who comes in and says, Oh, don't shoot him. And it's Thorndor, king of the eagles. It's just that was fast.

I know. It makes you wonder was he just hovering waiting that way. It was just like so on it. I thought it was like, Okay, I'm done with you. But maybe it was just feign or that he was like, I'm done with you. Oh, yeah, maybe it. Well, that's the theme. That's the theme. This is an interesting prayer.

The noldor assigned like semi-cursed or at least medium cursed. So it's interesting that Manway answers it so rapidly and so thoroughly. And I guess to me, mostly so rapidly, like, I definitely still think of him as sort of a ponderous man sitting on his throne, taking his time. Um, so yeah, so the eagle comes down, he doesn't let him shoot. He carries Femgon up there. And then it's still sad because Femgon cannot get the chain off. And he has to cut his hand off. Awful. But just the kind of gritty reality. Yeah, well, there were some other like interesting ties here too, because the Prometheus myth has eagles as well.

I know, right? So you've got them like tearing up trails. Yeah, it's just, it was just an interesting mix of, of eagle and Prometheus. And I enjoyed that.

But this is the act that heals the noldor. It sounds like that was the impression I got at least. So like, this is how they become one. And maderos, I guess keeps everybody in line and says, Nope, we're with Fingolfin, we're with Fingon, like we're all going to work together now. So that was good to see. I was not expecting that.

I was expecting that to take quite a bit longer. Oh, there's a, there's a funny note here in, oh, go ahead. No, no, no, go ahead. Oh, I was just going to say.

So they're just having various councils and debates. And it says, Fearing the fell spirit of the sons of Feanor that it seemed would ever be liked to burst forth in rash word or violence, but maderos restrained his brothers. And I just remember reading that, be like, Oh man, I hope that lasts.

How long, how long can he do that? So yeah, it sounds like the rest of this, a lot of the rest of this is, you know, dealing with a little bit of criticism, a little bit of getting back to knowing each other. Some dealing with the dwarves. It sounds like a lot of time is passing where they're, they're dealing with dwarves, they're fighting off various orcs. But they're not having any more super major battles. I thought it was interesting so they kind of come back together like you mentioned after this big act and they're kind of like, okay, let's be the noldor, a common group.

We're going to be under Fingolfin. And then they start reaching out to the other elves and other creatures. And so they send, you know, an emissary to King Dingol and they're like, Hey, yo, you know, elves that have been lived here, we're here from Valinor. And King Dingol has kind of a cool reception for them, right? He's like, cool.

He's not as impressed as stay there. You can't live on my land. Yes. There's a lot of talk about territory here. Yeah, which is really interesting because the ones who left Valinor were leaving thinking we're setting out into the great wide world where everything is available to us and it's all frontier.

And when they arrived there, guess what? It's not frontier. It's been, been populated, been settled. Yeah, you are restricted to this little strip of land.

So yeah, some of the stuff I skipped over is like talking about all those little strips of land that everyone decided to settle in. Yeah. It is a cool reception. It is a very cool reception. And I think it's so interesting. And justified. I feel like that's how people would react. Like, oh, so you're back.

Interesting. Do you think you're just gonna, yeah, exactly. And it's, he very specifically said, he's like, I'm not going to kick people out of their homes. Like, yes.

He said something very similar to that where it's like, you can stay where you are. Yeah, which is really interesting. Also, when you consider, I've never gotten the impression that the elves exactly have like a population problem, you know, you don't get the idea that having a ton of children is commonplace. So it makes you wonder exactly how big the individual personal bubble is for an elf.

You know, it's so funny to you mentioned that we'll talk about this more in the next chapter, which is very geography based. But a big question for me that came as we were talking about all these groups of elves. So King Thingol is just one, I'd say he's probably a big one. But then there's other small groups of elves and other locales that they also visit, and they also have conversations with their leaders and discuss. And I'm like, how many elves were there?

Yes, we don't have a total. We get to Lord of the Rings. You sense like there's only like these couple of pockets.

Like what happened to the elves? There must be enough. And I wonder how many of them died in this war, right? Yeah. And other wars.

But there must be enough at this point because get this, they have a siege of Angbod, which lasted quote, well night 400 years of the sun. What the heck? And this is just wild to me because, you know, I've been reading a bunch of like classics history. So it's like siege of this, siege of that.

Yeah. And I mean, Alexander was very fast in his sieges, but his sieges lasted months, 400 years, incredible, completely ridiculous. So yeah, they could be just losing population constantly. That's the thing that this kind of rate, this in the next chapter can raise for me was like, wow, there's a lot of pockets of elves. They're everywhere. And I think men are just starting to show up on the scene around this time. And so this is, they're not really mentioned in these chapters, but it just made me wonder where we're men staying. How did all this geography really fit in there?

Play out? Well, good thing you asked about the geography because somebody wrote you an entire chapter on it. I know. I should say before we move on to that. No, we can't move on to that. There's actually a few more things I have to say.

There's a bunch of pages. Okay. What are you going to say?

Okay. So we're talking about King Fingal. We're talking about, you talked about the dwarves. We talked about the other elves, Galadriel and Finrod. They're part of this noldor group. They come to visit King Fingal.

And it says, and I'm going to have to find the right place. But basically, Finrod is kind of enchanted by this locale. He wants to go build a city. He's making, you know, dreams of building this grand hall.

He's dreaming big dreams. But Galadriel stays with King Fingal because she falls in love. Oh yeah. Galadriel, his sister went not with him.

Yeah. Because in Doriath, dwelt, Celeborn, Celeborn, kinsman of Fingal, and there was great love between them. Therefore, she remained in the hidden kingdom because King Fingal was very protective. He says, I'm not going to let you in my borders. He has to go around with that million set up, right? Yeah. And million is the one that Lydia loves to say, and is sourced. She's a Maya. She's a Maya. But it made sense that she learned things from, that she learned, that Galadriel learned things from Melian because she does come off with that very otherworldly vibe. And I also wonder, so King Fingal, at first I thought, man, Fingal, I was like, why are you being so protective of your space?

You're being kind of weird. But then I remembered he's married to Melian who's a Maya. She's probably heard all the dirt from the Hallenor. And she's like, you don't want to be with these people. These people just did the kinslaying. You don't want to let these people in.

These people just burned the boats and left their friends on the other side. I love the idea of like Melian having straight source hot gossip all the time. And after every meeting, she's like, let me tell you more. Have tea with me. I've got the deeds. So I think it makes sense that King Fingal is like, yeah, you can't give them such a poor reception. You can stay out of my kingdom. Yeah, it's I mean, I also would have that reaction to them.

Even if I didn't know every bad thing they did. Yeah. It's like, it is just a bunch of L's showing up out of nowhere. And you're like, why are you here? Right? Yeah.

You had the like the light of the trees. I don't know. Exactly.

Actually, no, that's a very good point because it feels even more suspicious. Why did you leave heaven to come here? Yeah. You know who leaves heaven? Devils.

Did they kick you out? Exactly. Exactly. No, it was totally voluntary. Aha.

We're slowly on King Fingal's side. I'll be asking my wife later. Exactly. She has the deeds. Yeah, that's funny. I love that.

There's a little bit in here after all this stuff that is wild to me. So Mordoth is talking about like specifically requests that certain like that the orcs take the elder alive if they fight them. Oh, yeah. And this is brutal. It says some he's so daunted by the terror of his eyes that they needed no chains more.

But whatever in fear of him doing his will wherever they might be. And I just thought that was a very interesting concept because now we're introducing like Cylon L's. Oh, from the inside spies.

Yeah. And I don't know if we're going to see these elves do anything major or not. But the introduction of them is very interesting to me. It is really interesting and not something that we necessarily see. I mean, they talk about it in rings of power with orcs. They see usy creptin elves, but not necessarily something that we see in Lord of the Rings or the Hobbit.

No, we don't. Yeah. So I wonder, yeah, maybe they were all killed. I don't know. Yeah. Yeah. Because I don't remember reading anything like that in Lord of the Rings either. Yeah, I don't either. Really interesting. So after that, we do something really cool or rather more dots or something really cool. He's making me like him.

He does every chapter we read about. Yeah, it's like really unfortunate. So, I mean, time is passing. This is just time to song passing. All right. So after it says again, after 100 years, Glawarun, the first of the Ooloki, the fire drapes of the north.

Issued from onbods, dates by night. One, I like his name. Glawarun, Glawarun, I guess maybe. Glawarun. So this is our first dragon.

I'm assuming this is like Smog Scrampa or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Interesting to note, he was yet young and stairs half grown. So this is cool because we got a long time ago, a tidbit of like, oh yeah, Meltor is making the dragons. And it has been this long before one of them is big enough to even like walk out the door to like get out of his crib. And he's only half grown. This is so long.

They have such long lives. And I loved his reaction. He says, Morgoth was ill pleased that Glawarun had disclosed himself over soon.

He's like, that was my big secret. What are you doing? You just going out of luck?

Yeah. I like, I love the idea that Glawarun is like this teenager that he, he like had locked in his room and like he like broke out. It's so funny.

A broody creature. Yeah, some kind of like, yeah, I don't know. Anyways, that, that was the end of the chapter basically for me.

That was the last note I had. I am very excited for the dragons. Like very excited. And I loved, I think so throughout this whole chapter, I thought it was interesting. I thought it was immediately going to go into some really intensive war and that was going to kind of like kick some, some booty. But you get a very distinct feeling of like the Noldor settling in and Morgoth or yeah, Morgoth is ramping up. Right.

He's still kind of, he just got back. It's the slow wheel of preparation. It's the slow wheel of preparation. And you get this feeling of discomfort, right? There's multiple characters in this chapter that they say like Omo gave them a disturbing dream.

Yes. There's tension. They feel like maybe they're not preparing or they feel like everything's going well for them. Whenever the orcs come out, they always beat them and they're like, oh, we got this, but you have this sense of but little did they know, right?

Like something's going to happen. Yeah, I look at this section and I'm like, and here the light of Amon is dimming and Morgoth is sending out those orcs. But is he sending them out to like just keep you distracted while he does Bidur and Bedur themes?

Is that why he was so upset when Glauron came out? It's like, ugh, you can't show them my Bidur and Bedur themes. I'm not ready yet. So yeah, I also felt like there was just like a powerful sense of foreboding in this chapter. And I was expecting more battles too. But how can you have battle when you have to seed for 400 years? This is ridiculous.

Oh my goodness. I do think it's interesting because I think Tolkien's kind of setting it up for them maybe to have more to lose. Because it talks about that they grew greater power of mind and body.

They were mightier soldiers and sages and they built with stone and they love the hill slopes and the open land, right? Like they're settling in. They're developing, they're settling. They're developing.

They're making homes that we can now burn and lose. And there was a quote that said, and even some of them, you know, some of the Noldor thought that they were seeing the result of Feinor's prophecy, right? Of that they would go and they would have glory and home in Middle Earth. And I think that's what this chapter is setting up. But I think it's going to very quickly just evolve into something worse. We'll never know because the next chapter is just geography.

Okay, moving on to chapter 14. Yeah, look, I have many complaints. All right, many, many, many. And I will get right to them. I took one note in this entire chapter.

Are we ready? The note says, it's from the beginning, it says, this is the fashion of the lands into which the Noldor came. And I took a little note and it says, yeah, might be a good chapter to mine for baby names. But otherwise I prefer, I prefer maps.

Yeah, I just, I just have a strong complaint. Like, there are, I mean, I've read a few now, but there are many diversions that your classical historian, ancient historian would go on. And the least worthy of these diversions, the most popular diversions are slamming other historians.

These are hilarious. So I was like, that guy gets his facts wrong. He misquoted the armies. They were not that many wounded.

He doesn't even know where Greece is. All these kinds of ridiculous things. They're so funny. So slamming other historians, very popular. Going on massive, massive asides for geography. And most of the time the geography is not correct.

But like, massive ones, I can't even describe to you. So if you read Herodotus, he had, he writes one book. It's called The Histories. It's the earliest history. History. Wow, can't speak.

It's the earliest history. Book one, excellent. It's really tight. It's character driven. It's all about Cyrus and Persian, like all this good stuff.

It's so good. And I'm thinking, wow, Herodotus, he's amazing. It's just like sitting down at the fire. You have like your grandpa telling you stories. And then he says one thing. He goes, and now we'll talk about Egypt as an aside, Egypt. And then we spent an entire another book talking about Egypt.

And you know what? Nothing happened in that book. It's book two. Nothing happened in Herodotus book two. Is it a trilogy?

Because the middle is always the slowest. Well, yeah, I mean, they, they, they named their chapters books or whatever. But like, I think there were six in that one. It is nonsense. The entirety of it to is gone. It's devoted to Egypt for no reason whatsoever. And then chapter three, we get right back to Cyrus where we meant to be in the beginning.

I just, oh, it was very painful to slot through. That was his hobby, Lydia. He's trying to branch out. I got serious vibes of that here. And then my other complaint is if you want to convey, I just, yeah, told him to do what he wants.

He knows better than me. But I feel like if you wanted to convey the geography to the reader, there was a better way. So my favorite editions that we've been reading, they're called landmark editions. What they do is they really, well, they printed on extra bid paper first.

So that's nice. And then in the margins, they have a bunch of marginalia. So you'll have little summaries of every, of every paragraph. And you'll have dates in every paragraph and you'll have little maps. So probably every three pages, you have a big map and every other page, you have like a little map. And I have never known Greece as well as I have when we were reading those. It was like, whoa, I actually know where all these little tiny cities are because you have to know where they are.

You have to know who's who. Because, you know, every Greek city state is its own populace, with its own designs and thoughts and whatever. And I wish we had a landmark edition of the Silmarillion and we could just cut this chapter out. And then as they're going places, we'd have the map right there, you know, with the marginalia. Next project, Sylvia. Don't see this.

Don't see this. I have so many projects. Very tempting though. Not going to lie.

Landmark Silmarillion. I feel that though. I have to know a lot more than I know now. Because I thought this was really interesting. And as they were like talking about it, but I was like, man, I just, I need to see it, right? Yeah. Like so many words.

Yeah. And I did not have, I just recently got a Silmarillion that has maps in it. I did not have one previously. So I'll, I should probably do the right thing and take a second spin at this chapter with a map reference. And maybe I wouldn't hate it as much. I have a little map, but I feel like I needed one that was a little bit bigger because it had some of it, but not. And it didn't have the detail you wanted.

Yeah. It didn't have the detail I wanted. We need a Google maps version of Lord of the Rings. I don't see. Zoom in endlessly.

I do. Well, and I was going to say, no, we looked this up and I'm going to look it up again. But the Larianne was the, I kind of think about in Lord of the Rings as like the North continent, right? But it was North.

Okay. I'm looking west of the Middle Earth that we know. So looking.

Yeah. My sense of geography is very weak. Like I know roughly where the Shire is and roughly where Mordor is and roughly maybe we're gone to Earth.

Like even Rohan, I'm like, is it more North or more South? Like I'm actually a little foggy on that. Yeah.

So I only know very limited section. Okay. So I'm looking at it looks like so we have Middle Earth kind of the way.

Yeah. And it looks like Bolaire actually north and to the west. Kind of like an extra little, I'm doing like a C shape in the air, but like an extra that it said fell because of the power of the battles that was going on. Oh, like this whole area was destroyed.

The whole continent or area of Bolaire, I think fell into the sea because of the strength of the battles. That's intriguing. Yeah. I'm looking at the map too now.

And so by the time we get down to our Middle Earth and Lord of the Rings, they have sea front views. Bolaire. Yeah. The Bolairean east of the continent had sunk.

And that is actually really interesting. And then where is, I mean, we haven't really gotten to this part of the somewhere on yet, but where is Numenor in relation to this west? I believe it's like an island.

Yeah. Like a South Island. I need a bigger map. This map is only Bolairean. Yeah.

So there was like west. Bolairean. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

No, you're right. It's Southwest. I see it. I guess. I guess the lesson here is go look up a map. It's the only way to get through this chapter.

Yeah. Go look up a map. And then yeah, that's basically what I'm seeing is Bolairean was like an extra west. To the Middle Earth that we know. And then Numenor was a Southern off.

Yeah. So I guess we're saying like if California and some of the western states sunk into the ocean. This is what you'd have.

How could be left? Yeah. I mean, I'm looking at a map here. I'm going to have to get a bit of what I have to make some effort for this. I don't even see, I don't know where this is in relation to the Shire and like other stuff.

So we're much farther west. I think I found a good one. Oh yeah.

Pop that in chat. The impression idea is that, well, at least so it was funny. It was a contrast.

The impression I got when reading the previous chapter when Thingdall was saying, get out. There's no room for anyone here. You know, we're full was that this land was very small. And then the impression I got when reading this chapter and seeing the map, I like, whoa, this land is huge. So it makes it made Thingdall come off very territorial, which, you know, I support him. Which we decided actually might not be the worst. Yeah.

I think he was right. He's like, you know what? I need my space. People need space. Like don't take it. But yeah, that's my biggest takeaway. Is there anything else that we would want to say about this chapter? No. And I was serious about the above comment. If we ever come back for more baby names, I feel like there's strads in here. Yeah.

There's rivers, there's mountains. I feel like that could be good. I thought it was interesting. So like we do have this association of Morgoth with fire, but it did say like he was in the north, right? Like nobody could really encircle him in the north because it was so icy and so mountainous. Yeah. It is really interesting that, that he chose to put him in the north.

I don't know. It just seems like an odd place for the evil Dark Lord to live, but I guess where else would you put him? I don't know which cardinal direction I associate most with evil, but I guess it wasn't north.

You know, it's funny because I feel like we associated more with heat, but I have to tell you if I had to run from something, it would be the cold. It's true. Oh yeah.

This is a cool map. Okay. So all of that is sunken. Yeah.

The light blue is sunk. Got it. Yes. And I see Mordor. I thought I recognized, I saw that on a different map and I thought I recognize those weirdly squarish mountain ranges. If you can like zoom in a little bit and you can see Numenor, the little star shaped island off to the left as well. I see him.

All right. Well, I'm excited for all this to get destroyed and then we'll have another chapter on geography. And we will update our knowledge, but yes.

But actually seeing it on the map is kind of cool because it lends credence to the reaction of the Valinor. I think it's back in chapter 11 where they're like, you know what, for the sake of man, we better not do anything because look, when they do get going, look what happens. Yeah. They take out half the continent. It seeks.

They stick it. Not to mention Numenor. Yeah.

So yeah, they're totally justified. I will study a map instead of sliding through that chapter again. That sounds great. And we recommended for all of our listeners as well.

Yes. Better luck to us next chapters. I guess we should find out what's out there. Let's see. Are we going to hit with maps? Oh, maybe. Hold on. Chapter 15 of the Noldor in Beleriand. That could be a map or it could be action. All right.

You never know. And the chapter 16 is called of Maedlin. I feel like we've seen this name before and it is not. Isn't that famous wife? Am I making that up? Was that the one? No. But he had a she-was-with and they like almost got, they got a divorce or something.

That's what I thought. I'm excited to see what's going on with her. It's a really cool picture in my similar alien book and it's like of this woods and this creepy looking dude. And then this person with a big white outfit.

So I have no clue what's going on. Saruman? That would be wild. It'd be fat old. That would be really fun. I would enjoy that. Something that was so funny about Saruman.

So I forgot to tell this in my New Zealand podcast episode. But Christopher Lee, epic dude. Like he's the only one who met Tolkien in real life. And apparently got permission from Tolkien to play Gandalf if there ever was a movie produced of Lord of the Rings.

But Christopher Lee. So when he did the casting, did he apply for Gandalf? He applied for Gandalf.

But I think he was a little bit older. Gandalf was going to be riding around on horses doing all of this stuff. So I think Christopher Lee and they obviously I feel like Ian was incredible. I love him as Gandalf. But I think there were a few reasons why maybe that wasn't the best fit for him at that point in time. Well, and then Christopher Lee has that voice. I feel like he has a very distinctive voice. So good.

And I love the story. You've probably heard this where they were practicing that scene where like, is it in the extended version where worm tongue stabs him in the back? And he says, that's not how it sounds when you stab a man in the back.

He said this? Yes, because he was like a secret service agent in his earlier life. He was like a spy for Britain or something. So he was like a very intensive.

He's like actually stabbed people? Amazing. Like, and everyone on set was like, what do you mean? Yeah, what do you say to that?

That's amazing. I mean, honestly. That's not what it sounds like when you stab a man in the back. How do you describe it then?

You just make the sound and you just hum note deeper, louder, softer, tweak it. Good for him. It's genuinely wild. So anyways, love the good song. That's hilarious.

I've never heard that. Yeah, Saruman is so well played. Genuinely one of my favorite characters. He's great.

You gotta give him some love. We should do a deep dive on him. We should. I would love that.

He's a fascinating man and a fascinating character. So we should, we shall. We will. Let's do it. All right.

Next time. Sounds great. Thanks for joining us everyone. All right. See ya. Bye. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.