Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia.

Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, beatalons, and laffalons.

We are excited to have you as a new friend on this journey with us. Welcome to Speak Friend and Enter a Lord of the Rings podcast. Hello, hello everyone, welcome back! It's a Marillian time. It is. It's a Marillian reading and we are on chapters 15 and 16.

And these were rocking. I was enjoying all of this. No longer are we out in the the purgatory of geography land. We're back. We have plot and we have characters. The last chapter was a little rough.

But these ones are really interesting. And I think the way I would describe like just a quick brief sentence or so on chapter 15 and then chapter 16 is I feel like chapter 15 is Tolkien saying and here is that prophecy of Mando's right that this formidable thing would always be following the Noldor and they would never quite find peace. Like that is you're seeing that played out in chapter 15 like just generally but then chapter 16 is kind of this like really more specific scenario drama of this one person and how it played out in his life. And I was telling Lydia earlier you're like it's kind of just like a little mini drama you know like it's not a lot of characters that are super I don't know well-known he kind of introduces these new ones.

I've never heard of these ones yeah.

So it's been it was kind of fun to read and it will be fun to chat about. I'm curious what made Tolkien decide he needed to do a little mini drama for chapter 16.

Well he's done it before I'm not so surprised because we had the mini drama of Owl-A and Yvonne.

Yeah I guess we just heard so much about him since then.

Yeah that's true but like the way it was characterized is like very much man discovers why his wife is about to divorce him you know. It feels like a little sick. It does a little and we've had another one as well that is a who was the other one. We have had one more. Well we were just like a very limited scope just a few characters here's a family drama.

We've had a few more. We went into Feynmore but I feel like I get that I get getting going into his family.

He's such a major character. He's such a major character whereas I don't think this person is going to show up that much we'll see we'll see. We're about to find out. Maybe I'm surprised. I liked the way you were saying you know chapter 15 is all about the prophecy of Mando's and like this doom that he proclaims on where he says you can never come back and because you're leaving this is going to hang over and shadow the rest of your lives forever ever ever which is all very ominous and it makes it feel like the way he declares it initially at least the way that I initially read it was wow he is so petty and ventral just a little bit because the way it's phrased as we did you think oh he's only saying that because they're leaving and he's mad that they're leaving whereas when you see it now as it plays out once you know more about like the circumstances of their departure and the tin sleigh and all that you realize he was so right the whole time he looked at them and said I know what you're about to do you are bringing this on your own heads so be it and it gave a very different vibe for me to that entire prophecy and it's like wow they really did bring this on themselves.

Yeah more of a forewarning.

Yes exactly it was more of a forewarning and less of a I now curse you which is definitely how I read it the first time.

Well and this is the one where Feynour he kind of gets uppity with them and he's like like because the messenger does the messenger said no that's a different scene. No Feynour said who you think you're thinking about Feynour? I was just thinking like earlier before they had left I think that there was the messenger from the

Valar and Feynour gets very sassy with them. You're trying to eat your words when I come back with Gloria and you're doing about a me. Oh my gosh this is so ridiculous. And then they move. Have respect for your dogs.

And then he comes over here and he's dead pretty soon and then now it's just his family living out his sad dream.

Yeah it's good but we don't start off with that we start off with turd off.

Yes in chapter 15.

And I just like I'm not gonna lie I read turd on and I thought I should know who this is. How does he relate to everyone else in the jungle?

Oh my gosh wait so this one is a total guidance of Umo turd on of never asked discovered I thought.

Yeah I just like I thought he was one of the Feynour brothers or Feynour sons but he isn't. He's one of the I think he's somebody else. Umo is the god of the sea. Yeah so Umo is telling him to do stuff.

Oh turcan of never asked.

I gotta google him because I am dying. Do it. He's an elven king of the Noldor. Oh die it's because it was in that genealogy section. I'm illiterate to genealogy and geography. Oh I was so good I thought. So second son of Fiendolfinn. Okay yes. He is one of the Noldor. That makes sense. Yes which is interesting so Umo is talking to this guy which is funny to me because I'm like hello all the other followers aren't talking to these guys what do you do at Umo?

Umo that stood out to me. He's sympathetic to the elves remember he was saying like he well not the Noldor is a particular type of elves to be sympathetic to but he like sings to the elves via his or actually that was to men via the lovers.

It was to men but maybe he also does it for them. Like I get that. Um what I think is interesting is that turdan was like his number one desire was I'm gonna build a city and it's gonna be better than anyone else's cities.

And also it's gonna be more secret than anyone else's cities. That is funny. And so he goes and almost says I know the just the right place for you and maybe what they're connecting on is their hermit tendencies. Their hermit hood. Yeah so like turdan was debating he was like talking to himself and that's the river and almost like ooh I hear hermit trying to decide where he will hermit. I'll help him.

That's how I read it. I almost got the impression it says the unquiet that omel set and his heart returned to him. I don't know I get the impression omel kind of wanted. He kind of made it happen. He kind of wanted people to be in this place and so he was like we don't know why people come to this place right like I almost get this sense.

Yeah it could have good intentions or creepy intentions. I don't feel like omel would have creepy really. No I don't I'm just making it up but like imagine if it was anyone else right. Yeah like you find a house you're like I want somebody to live here.

There's so many different ways. His motivations are a murky to me because I feel like I don't know omel is as well as the other valor. So yeah I guess I don't know and I will say that it was almost student who was like being most persuaded by Mordoth back in the day. Oh I know it was that.

Oh actually I do remember

there was the male and the female Maya. Yeah that's true.

I don't know I guess I've always thought of omel being like kind of borderline. So we'll see how he does. Anyways so omel was like yo you need a place for your secret city. I know the right place go here and he does go there and he builds a city. He begins building a city for like fricking 250 years. At last the city was full rot after 250 years of secret toil. And in the Sindarin town the name was changed and it became Gondolin the hidden rot and all I could think is is this Gondor.

What is this place. Yeah I mean it could not be like I could just be making that up but that was my immediate thought. Maybe Gondor is descended from this hidden city and I love that idea.

I think so Gondolin I'm pretty sure is in Beleriand. So that would get destroyed I believe. Let's see here.

I didn't actually doodle it at the time I just wrote notes to self.

But the name sounds extremely familiar. Yeah it looks like that would have been part of Beleriand. It looks like they're different. And so Gondolin would be in that land mass that ultimately got sunk from the really big battle that's to come. But I do get the impression man the name sounds familiar. I wonder if they ever named something else after it. Because it does seem like the naming seems very similar to other things that we see and rings of power and Gondor.

Yeah but that could just be a lack of our knowing the roots of the words right.

That's true.

Oh I also. That was the first thought I had but it could be nothing.

Yes I also okay tell me what you think about this. This is from the very beginning but they're describing the location where Umo is taking this guy. Turgan is saying like build this city right and Turgan wants to build a city but Umo saying build it here.

But okay so listen to this description. But there was a deep way under the mountains delved in the darkness of the world by waters that flowed out to join the streams of Syrian. And this way he found a green plain amid mountains and saw an island hill that stood there on hard smooth stone.

Oh okay for some reason it sounds like it's an island in the midst of these big mountains surrounding it right. Because the streams go through them deep. But I thought of that scene from Lord of the Rings where Gandalf is falling. And do you remember that huge underwater lake that they like fall into.

For some reason when it was saying like the streams that flowed like deep into the mountains. You're wondering maybe it's something similar there. I don't know I just thought how cool would that be if there was like this island deep in the mountains on this beautiful lake. I think it's an island just surrounded by these mountains.

And I think it used to be an island and so it's now a plain because the waters have long since disappeared. I love that image. Can you imagine like Gandalf just a scene of like you're going underground and on this lake there is a city. A city.

How cool would that be. I love the imagery.

It's a beautiful place. But yeah so they go out and they built this scene and successfully complete it and it sounds like oh yeah this is interesting. So Turdron is talking to Ulmo and Ulmo warns Turdron you are also under the power of this doom of Mando's. And Ulmo says he had no power to remove it which I thought was interesting. Does Turdron ask him to? Does Ulmo want to do it but can't? So then Ulmo says thus it may come to pass that the curse of the Noldor shall find thee to air the end and treason awake within thy walls. And he says more.

But I thought that was cool because like it wasn't clear to me what the like. What Turdron's reasoning is for building this city. Obviously some element of it is you know they've just arrived in this new land. They want to carve a place for themselves.

They have to do some place where nobody else is. There's there's we'll see later for certain but there's definitely some level of hostility between like Noldor and Sindarin and Noldor and Noldor. So like you can see these little branches breaking off and just wanting to be separate and alone and kind of isolationist.

And I think Turdron is like the most obvious and physical example of this. He's like I'm going to build a sutra city. Ain't nobody gonna come to my city except for people I like. And you know so he's the most obvious situation here. But I wonder some part of him also is thinking if I go out here where I'm all alone you know like away from all these other people all these other Noldor. Maybe I will get out of this curse and it was explicitly saying you will not get out of it. Not even here not even in this most secret of places where you did out of it.

So that was interesting to me. It's so interesting you bring that up because I feel like when I was thinking about it and like because they mentioned in the previous chapter to like the brother of Galadriel also founds a city right.

He finds a beautiful spot and founds a city. And so I was thinking like why is this some this is a trend that these people these Noldor and I think it's because they're looking for that home right. Like they left they left this beautiful place.

And I think Feynor even said he's like we're going to go and we're going to have an even better home right like we're going to be even better across the sea.

And I think it makes sense for them to like they are at a period of civilization where it is city founding time. Sometimes it's just city.

They want their own place you can see there's also these structures building and like all the sons of Feynor and the cousins that they want to have their own kingdoms. There's like different power structures and so you see them really like I kind of get the idea they're like nesting you know what I mean you really see them kind of like circling around in their nest like fluffing their feather like.

They're trying to settle in and I think part of like the curse or the doom of Mando's is he says you're going to go there with these high hopes and it's not going to be even going to achieve. Things and you're going to just want it's not going to be what you want right.

Yeah. And so I think that's what's so hard is like they come here they're like they're like pioneers are like okay we're going to settle the land even though you know they have all of this push back and there's a lot of things that they have to contend with. And then they realize this is never going to be my end all be all this is never going to fulfill all my hopes and desires so yeah so I'm liking this doom of Mando's. It feels kind of sad.

More of it.

Nice stunning city right yeah yeah and we all we already know something bad is going to happen because like. He's like oh no keeps on going and he did some his own little prophecies I was very interesting so you know at the tail end of what he says he says from Navras one shall come to warn thee and from him beyond ruin and fire hope shall be born for elves and men leave therefore in this house arms and a sword that in years to come he may find them and thus shout down know him and not be deceived and almost declared certain what kind of end stature should be the helm and male and sort that he left behind. For shattering of something I've never heard of this I don't know what they're talking about he's saying it sounds to me he like he's saying and in the east the savior shall be born and you know what I mean like it really sounds like that. Very very yeah I don't know what he's talking about but he's saying deterred on you make these preparations because this type of doom is happening like this this outcome is going to occur and it's going to be bad. And we see that turd on it looks like turd on does it and that was such an interesting scenario to like to be building a great work with some kind of ending like that hanging over you.

It's interesting a couple of thoughts so first of all I don't maybe cause feynor was so sassy with the Valar it's interesting to me to me that an old or would be so like trusting and interested in having a Valar. You know give advice on his city yeah but also I think it's interesting that almost saying like I'm going to tell you this slightly painful thing right that you need to remember this and rather than turd on getting defensive and being like you don't know what you're talking about like it's going to be fine he's like no like let's do some preparation just in case right.

Seems I don't know if repentant is the right word but like it might be the right word like it seems like he's willing to acknowledge that he's not in denial about it I guess is the best way to say it.

He thinks that it might be likely that this isn't going to last right. Yeah. So that that lovely bittersweet as you said. So dead. I loved the next part where we start chit chatting it turns into girl talk between.

This was the next stuff that I had as soon as we got to this part I was like we talked about this exactly as foretold by us because that whole affair where like seemed all is like very cold and we were like you know who knows what's up. She's telling things all the time and here we are and she's like I know stuff but I don't know enough I'm going to get it straight for the source and they do girl talk. They do girl talk. It's amazing.

Their girl talk is so good look how Melian does it she doesn't like sidle into it from the side you know it says then Melian looked in her eyes and said I believe not that the nolder came forth as messengers of the Valar.

Which is brutal because glad you're straight up no door.

Brutal. Yeah it is so I don't even know the equivalent of doing this to somebody's face like what would it be. I don't know. I don't know. I don't know it'd be like looking them in the eyes and saying so you lied you want to tell me more about your life.

Yeah exactly. I could picture actually I was just watching this show it's like these women in the 50s and it's like you invite someone just moved into your neighborhood and so you're like oh my goodness. Come over for tea like who's your husband how many kids do you have you know what I mean like you're getting the low down and I could totally see it being like yeah we totally moved from Wisconsin like Dave is a car salesman and you being like oh okay. And then like more details come out and then they come over for tea another day and you're like Wisconsin huh. Tell me more.

The pieces aren't fitting together. Yeah it was just so direct and I loved it. I just loved it so much because I was like we knew she was suspicious we knew it and she goes on more but that I mean that was that was the tick off and I actually really like the way she talks because she starts to try to give the ladle enough rope to hate herself. She goes so you said this thing and then the ladle says something slightly wishy-washy back and then she continues and she asks a little bit more of a probing question bloody bloody blah. And I like the ending here and million says now much you tell me and yet more I perceive. Yes. And she says I see evil there which thing will should learn for his guidance and the ladle's response is great maybe said to ladle but not of me.

Yeah because she said so glad real dis does speak to her she said she gives a little more context and she tells them about the Simaral.

But she's hiding the tin slay she's hiding the great sin.

That she's hiding the tin slay. Yeah which is so hard to yeah.

Yeah I just glad she was an interesting character to me in this as well where it's like she knows it's gonna come out at some point. She feels it but she doesn't want to be the one to say it and I was intrigued I slight her reasons for that. Does she not want to say it because she feels part of it does she not want to say it because she doesn't want to stote even higher tensions among the noldor who have just barely resolved the scene among themselves. Does she not want to say it directly to million who maybe she respects a lot like.

Or who she's worried will be biased against her people right

exactly all kinds of options here I want to know more. I love to see it was very tense

and then so and then million which we know she would do go straight to King think I guess what I heard honey. You tell one of us you tell both of us. Yes. And then thing all we kind of get the impression he's already bit of a moody dude and this like makes him even more disturbed right says he was silent with grief and foreboding. He's like now at last I understand the coming of the noldor out of the west.

But he doesn't not yet they don't know about the don't even know he feeds he knows he doesn't know what I thought was interest was the last bit of his sentence.

This was it was this was he says he does yet all the more sure shall they the noldor be as allies and more got with whom it is not now to be thought that they shall ever make a treaty. And I'm like whoa is that what they were thinking this is like an option that thing was seriously worried about. I thought the noldor would come in and ally with more got that was an interesting development for me this idea that. I guess that there are potentially L's openly declaring for more got at this point in time. I don't know the idea that they might

I think he's saying for vengeance to read a civil lawsuit yet all the more shall they be allies against more got with whom it's not now. Maybe he thought that they would make a treaty. I think part of me was thinking maybe they would just say let's not fight right.

The treaty could be both ways it may not be joined forces with more got it could just be hey we're Switzerland now we're not going to hear while you tell the synderans. Yeah it's possible.

I was like I was right the other way. Yeah I read it the other way as like that he thinking that they would join up with more got the you're totally right it could just be a treaty of peace.

Or yeah noninvolve noninvolvement. So they're they're like OK the center the similar L's make a big reason why they're here with more got that's ties to the kind of the laces for them there. But then I think it's so fascinating because million then you can't hide much from her because she says yeah truly these causes are the reasons why they come. But it's he says say the shadow of the wrath of the valor lies upon them and they have done evil like I perceive it right.

And she knows exactly what is up she just cannot say she doesn't know exactly the nature of the she knows that it was there. I think that's really interesting. Obviously she's a Maya. Yeah Maya. So her perception is probably on an elevated level and so there's like a little that you can hide from her.

Yeah. But I wonder if even to just you know somebody with less ability even if it is obvious because if you think about it like these no door they're really kind of like bonded together. In this secret shame. Yeah I feel like that does become visible to like outside parties.

There's something ominous weighing on these people off here. Yeah. And I think that it wouldn't be I think it would be obvious. I think it would be noticeable and even a little bit of a discord. It sounds like that was pretty healed up with our previous chapters and we talked about the sun.

Yeah I don't know. I feel like now that I'm reading this I'm like maybe it felt more healed up before. And I'm thinking maybe this is just like tentative bandages. Yeah. Because we did some scenes later on where it's like pretty clear that there's an older versus an older.

I was going to say the shit burning and all of that. Okay yeah yeah. Yeah so I don't know. And this chapter honestly for me was so interesting because in The Lord of the Rings I just think elves are elves. Elves are elves they have their own powers they have their own life you know tendencies are all beautiful and they all kind of look the same. And now they feel distinct.

And now this is. Because now from now on I'm always going to be asking myself is this

a no more or is this a cinderella? Is this a no more or not? For me it's just no more or any other type. But it is like you get the impression where Tolkien is saying like all's not well in Eden.

In paradise. In paradise right? Yeah I agree. He's saying there's a lot going on here.

Because we're not hearing anything from Mordoth in these chapters. Yeah. Nothing.

But there's still plenty of stuff going on. Yeah. And a little bit honestly like I totally get think all being like something's weird here I sniff it and it's not right and I don't like you. But also I almost get I get this sense of bias and a little bit of like why are you here this is my.

Well it's all suspicious all the way down and you would be suspicious too if all these like random people showed up and they like let it be put out that they're yes we're totally out of mission from the gods. But they're just like they don't hear and they never talk about the gods that that comes up later as one of these things that he has noticed like they don't even talk about the Valar how can they be here like as their messengers you know. So it's it's that's what I'm talking about like the shame that unites the Noldor that is obvious to other people like this dark secret. It must become obvious in like little little things you know the things they don't talk about. Yeah. You know the sentences is that get caught a little bit too early.

Yeah. They look safe to each other like yeah just like awkward silence is like things that only become apparent over time and so this must be building like as you interact with them like oh they're always just a little bit off they're always just a little bit creepy. Why am I so on edge around these people. You know man it's tough because I read this chapter and I have not been a big fan of the Noldor honestly I had big issues with but I read this chapter and I started feeling sorry for them because even though they've had a lot of issues. They've had a beauty in their life and they're starting fresh maybe I don't know we'll see.

I can't start fresh they have the curse of man. Exactly they feel biased against like it's just it feels like this darkness is going to follow them anyways so deep. But I also there's just so many good quotes in this chapter I could go on and on but I love this one so this is also Mellion line she just puts out ringers. Their swords and their counsels shall have two edges. I highlighted that one too. Where it was also really like how Mellion gets the last words the last words and it says afterwards they spoke no more of this matter.

Yeah yeah I love how they had like their little counsel and then they're like okay these are just things to ponder on let this inform you.

That's all you need to know. I guess the way I read what she's saying is it is we don't know their motivations they have hidden purposes. You just have to keep that aware they have to like always be aware of that and it's true they do have hidden purposes

and I think this is so interesting because it's basically saying like these are our people but but not but not right. Like we have to remember that there's something else going on so that's brutal.

That's a little section here is good. This is when the gossip spreads like fire. And it says it was not long before whisper tales began to pass among the Sindar concerning the deeds of the Noldor air they came to Beleriand. So obviously these are spread by Morgoth is the implication but I really like this line it says the evil truth was enhanced and poisoned by lies. Such a good line.

I mean the truth is evil. Like there's no way to put that. Yes. But enhanced and poisoned by lies. I just love love that phrase. And it's yeah Morgoth is at his best when he's doing gossip. He is such a gossipy little he puts words in people's heads.

Right. Yes. And oh wait.

Hold on. The line after that is so good because it says but the Sindar were yet unwary and trustful of words. So Morgoth chose him for this first assault of his mouse for they knew him not but I just love this like implication that like. The Noldor are like these war worn weary grim face don't trust everyone.

Sort of house don't trust anyone they're suspicious always. And it says like the Sindar are like naive essentially two words. Yeah. Which we don't really see because of the exactly because of the way thin gall is so thin gall is more noldor than he would like to be. Yeah. I just I really appreciated that difference because you know I guess

the Noldor are really interesting characterization for El's because. I don't think of them as being these like suspicious creatures who are always like on edge and like looking for you know just. Yeah. Just I don't think of them that way and now seeing this like oh interesting.

Yeah. And it's so interesting to me it he speaks of like when you don't tell the truth what can happen right.

Well sneak out somehow and it might be worse than if you had just said it in the first place right.

Yeah. And who knows what would have happened if they had fessed up to it earlier. But it's not good now. It's not good now. I basically highlighted an entire paragraph from the Finrod thing conversation. What did you like out of there.

It's so good. Basically. Yeah. So Finrod they come to see Finarfin and Finrod come to see Galadriel and who is living

with Thingol and Melion at the time.

Yes. Because she's fallen in love with someone from their kingdom. That's right. What's his face. Celeborn. Celeborn. Yes. I think so. And we hear nothing about him. I love how he's just like. She's like and then she fell in love and we're like oh so sweet. And then it's like the only thing you hear.

It's too happy to be written in this book.

I don't know. Honestly I would love to hear more about it. But so they're like come to I get the vibes of like a banquet almost like they're just like chilling. And Thingol basically says have you heard all of these evil things right. Like I've learned about all of these evil things.

Yes. And he's saying how dare you conceal these for me.

Yes. And then why have you concealed these things for me. And then this was so sad. So brutal. Then friend Rod was greatly troubled. But he was silent for he could not defend himself. Because Thingol brings up the slaying of your mother's skin.

Yep. And to do so to defend himself to say I didn't do that. He'd have to say who did. And that would be the other princes of Noldor. Which he feels compelled not to do because we have this like Noldor versus Cinder and Tension.

And then probably Noldor versus Noldor Tension. Like this whole scene was really good. It really helped like set the stage for these like tensions and factions. Yeah. And I thought it was interesting that Finn Rod was silent. But then he's got this guy in Rod. I don't know if we know him Rod.

Yeah. That was a bit of a surprise name for me. I'm not sure if I remember him.

I might have to doodle him real fast. But he cannot hold his tongue and it all slips out from him. Which you know what? Good for him. Good for him. Way to light.

He has to sit there and be accused. Yeah. Okay. I think Ayn Rod is another brother of Galadriel. Okay. Of Galadriel? Yeah. That's what I'm reading here.

Son of Finarfin and Erwin. So I'm pretty sure. But yeah. And he's the one and he is being accused right? I mean these are the guys that got abandoned when Feyn or burned the boats.

And they had to go through the health ratchets. And like all of this stuff he brings up. And I like how he ends it, but now these charges are no longer to be born and the truth you shall know. So it is interesting that the charges against the Noldor have been placed against all of the Noldor. All of the Noldor.

And that's got to be like brewing this resentment among the ones who definitely didn't do that. And so now this like hastily patched over marriage, you know, this peace that we've got between Noldor and Noldor, I think it might crack. I think they might really call it off between each other and like feign or sons. And you know, I think you know them as collagals brothers because I don't forget their relationship. What are they cousins to feign or sons? I think they really might schism hard now.

Yeah, and you get that. I mean, you definitely get the sense of a schism between Thingol, so like the Cinder and Elves and the feign.

Oh yeah, he is unimpressed with. Well, I think he's unimpressed with all of them. Yeah, exactly. And he is definitely lumping them all together in one one box, even though Aynrod is telling him not to. So the end of what?

Oh, go ahead. Yeah, yeah. No, I was just going to say because after Aynrod gives him that whole spiel, Thingol just says, my heart is hot within me. Go. Yeah.

Like, yeah. Out of here. Out of here. And I did it because like though, I mean, Aynrod has like, I have pity for him because the last thing he says is wherefore should we that endured the grinding ice bear the name of Kinslayers and traitors? Yeah.

And then that's when Malian says to him, the shadow of Mandos lies on you also. Yeah. And here's a theme. Here's the theme. Didn't they participate in the Kinslaying a little bit? Now that I'm thinking of it. They did, but they did.

Because they were tricked into it. They did it unawares. Yeah, they thought that they had been attacked and they had.

So like, I'm just saying, man, you did it. You did it. Yeah, it's tough. It's an interesting situation. Like there's a lot of a, there's a lot of different ways to read it. Okay. Did you love the Tower of Babel situation going on now? Yes.

Oh my goodness. I thought, well, I thought it was, I thought it was kind of brutal. This is when I was feeling sad for them. Honestly, I was like, why is there so much bias? I mean, honestly, it's tough. I would say maybe I don't trust you, but like, I don't know. No, he completely bans their language, which was so cool.

Bans their language. It was so cool because all I could think of was like, wow, we have not seen single. I don't know. I guess maybe this is my bias and in single. We have not seen him exhibit like power.

Like we see him hanging out in his little. He's, he's owned by millions. And snared and million. Yeah. Million is the shadow behind the phone here. Respect to her. I support her women's rights and women's rons. So yeah, but we haven't seen him do much, right? Yeah. And that's just a lack of it being written in here. Probably maybe exciting things have been happening.

We just haven't seen it. But here we see him make a big decision and it has serious consequences. And he has the power to enforce it, which was very interesting. So he says, the sender shall neither speak with the ton of the noldor nor answer to it.

And all such as use it will be held slayers of kin and betrayers of kin on repentance. Yeah. He is his heart is very hot.

He has no forgiveness in him. And basically they all leave. It looks to me like the lateral hangs around.

I couldn't tell if she left with them. Yeah, I know it says also, I think it's so interesting. So yeah, he's like, get out of here. He says, I won't close my doors for you forever, but for now get out of here. And he's like, I'm going to ban.

And I'm going to ban your language. And I thought it was so sad. The sons of Fennarfin depart with heavy hearts perceiving how the words of Mandoz would ever be made true.

Yeah. Like the things that they had hoped for here because of what they had done were never going to come to full fruition. But yeah, so Galadriel, it does say that she went and she visited. You're right. It looks like she leaves. She visited the sons of Fennarfin. And so I think maybe she left at that point.

Yeah. Um, yeah, this is some interesting other things too.

I also, okay, tell me how you think of this because I think this is kind of the last little thing that I had. So yeah, he says, the King thingal says, get out of here.

No one can speak your language. The sons of Fennarfin are really sad, right? They're like, oh my gosh, this prophecy is coming true. And it could end right there. But then it has this little clip it where Galadriel comes and she spends time with her brothers. And she asks, it's kind of funny. It kind of reminds me of a family Thanksgiving. She asks one of our brothers. Why aren't you married?

Yeah. It's like, you have no wife. Like why haven't you married someone?

Kind of a weird kind of family question to put in this and Marillian, but sure. And then I thought it was so interesting. He's like, an oath I too shall swear and must be free to fulfill it and go into darkness, nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should inherit.

Right? I highlighted that same verse. He basically says like, either because he's depressed about the future or he thinks the future is cursed. He's like, I don't want my son to have to inherit whatever is coming in the future.

That's an interesting way to read it. And so I, yeah, I looked at it. I thought maybe he's had a little gift of prophecy because just the phrasing of before sight came upon Felidind. Um, so yeah, the way I read that was he is literally giving himself a prophecy right now.

He's seeing his own future. Um, and he's seeing that there's some oath he's about to take, which I thought this was a weird phrase. And oath I too shall swear. Is he saying in addition to the one he swore with the similar oath?

I think so with the feign or. Okay. And must be free to fulfill it and go into darkness. Who knows what that is? Um, nor shall anything of my realm endure that a son should her and I think he's just saying that his realm will be destroyed. Um, maybe, but I also really liked the last line here where it basically says, um, indeed she whom he had loved was Amory of the vanyar and she went not with him into exile.

So my understanding is that she stayed in Valinor. That's wild. Yeah.

That's super wild. I was just watching the Lord of Reads, right? And like all those scenes where Erdogan is trying to break up with Arwen.

I'm like, Hey, those are sad. Um, and here he successfully did it like a fool. Um, I, yeah, like.

I almost get the impression that she lost a lot. Yeah. Yeah. I get the impression that he's like, come with me and she's like, no, I'm staying. And she didn't. Right. Yeah. And she stayed good for her. Honestly.

I know, right. And like looking at that too, it's like they were so hot headed when they left. Yeah. And remember how it was talking about Fae and Orr was driving them faster and faster. He was worried that their hearts would pool and they wouldn't see reason and they wouldn't go with him. Um, this is evidence that he, his heart was too hot. Er, you know, he was too hot.

He left the lovers of life there and now he is massively regretting it. You know. Yeah.

I feel that. Oh, this is a sad chapter, but it's so deep. It's so good.

Um, really fleshed out. Yeah. And I didn't really like them a couple of chapters ago.

And now that they've had a little bit of hurt, well, maybe in a few chapters, we can get some comfort before the next.

Maybe, maybe this. Okay. So I loved that. That just set up kind of like there's drama and Elf down and it's deep.

Yeah. Well, it's set up turd on, which was good because we're about to have, you know, chapter 16 is called of Madeleine. Yeah. Whoever that is, we're about to find out.

The pronunciation of that seemed funny to me too. Madeleine, right? Right. Madeleine. Yeah. Okay.

I don't know. That's how all assume it is. But it sets up turd on and now we know about turd on and his secret city. And now we learn about his sister, Eridel. Yes.

Who also has a little bit of a sad ish. I don't know. Interesting.

Everything is sad. All of this is sad. It's all Persephone Hades all the way down. Yeah. It's all sad. But yeah, this is, this is where like the story has focused in is like, and now I'm going to tell you about this one set of families, like four characters.

And how this kind of like Duma Mandos is affecting them basically. Yeah.

I think so. And I, yeah, I think the implication is that something worse is going to happen. So I'm very excited about that. But yeah, even, even what happens in this chapter is pretty bad. So we have Eridel who's living in the secret city and is tired of it. And it's like, you know what? I, it's not enough. I need more room. I need more space to roam. I'm going places.

I think maybe she wanted to go see her brother who is Fingon. And Turdon says, yeah, you can go, but you have to come right back because you know this is the secret city. And if anyone, he knows how secrets are kept. He knows that if anyone is out there, it's not going to be secret much longer.

And she's like, I'm over your secret city. Yes. This was such a funny line. She says, I am your sister and not your servant.

Yeah. And beyond your bounds, I will go as seems good to me. And if you begrudge me in escort, then I will go alone. So he, he's trying to convince her and does not really quite manage it because as soon as she gets out there, she says to her companions, turn now south and not north. Yeah. Let's go somewhere new.

Yeah. And so she can't be dissuaded. So they do exactly as she commands and they go, but here's what happens. They run into people from the turtle. They run from thing goals, men and thing goes, men say, direct, you can't pass through here.

You must go the long way. We're not dealing with an old or that's how I read it. Yeah. So like, I think this is an interesting scene to me of like how relations have broken down because we had people passing in there. Delateral was living with them.

Yeah. And now they're not letting anybody else kind of shut the borders. I think they shut the borders. Yeah. So I think we're seeing results of tensions rising, which is neat. Love to see it. So then she says that they go back on the dangerous road. Yeah.

They were as curious. And then towards it, it was Angoliant. Which is, I would not go there. We talked about. You would not go there. Angoliant went and hid in some random spot in the mountain and like poisoned.

It's a monster after monster. Poisoned everything around her. And I would not go there. Yeah. Exactly.

But she is determined to see her brother. She wants his family reunion so bad. A little bit of adventure probably as well. Our defense, it has been many, it sounds like many, many years. Because what the building of the city is 250. So like, who knows how long that is for now. Probably a decent chunk. So they're going and they just separate. So she is separated from her escort by the shadows. And they are like really worried about this and they search for her.

Can't find her. They go back to Turgon, you know, basically in morning. But she's resilient and finds her own way out of it. And then these people and they're ensnaring. I just don't understand that. Then we're introduced to this guy. What's his name? Eel. Eel.

Eel. Eel. It's E-O with two little dots and L. Yeah.

E-O-M-Lot-L. Eel. If it was German, Eel. Anyways, this guy. This guy, I can't handle him. He's awful. But he's super smart. So it says that I like this part. It's cool. So he's really good at metal work. And he has a metal as hard as the steel of the doors, but so malleable that he can make it thin and supple. And it remains resistant to all blades and darts. He named it Galvorn for it was black and shiny like jet.

And he was always clad in it. I don't know if we're ever going to see this metal again. I thought it was pretty cool.

Regretful that it was he who made it. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Then we did this. So we have Erdell who has accidentally strayed into his forest, which is described as the dark creepy forest with tall trees. And this is what it says.

Very fair. She seemed to him and he desired her. And I thought, oh, good for him. Maybe he'll be at love even though he's a creepy forest dwelling. And he said his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out. And then I thought, oh, no, he's a creeper. I mean, it's not exactly what Melian did, but like, it's not not.

I feel like Melian did it in a more like, oh, I'm so lovely. Don't you want to be with me?

Yeah. No, hers was in the positive direction and hers was come closer and his was, you can't escape. I know.

I was actually like, so how did he, okay, you keep going actually.

You keep going. No, that was my main stopping point right here because I was like, that was so creepy. And you never hear, I guess, before my preconception of else was that they were generally good people. But we had, I guess, just one instance of L's being creeper creepers. It's this one. Yeah. And Melian was just incidentally too beautiful. But yeah, this is so creepy.

So like you said, he was known for swith work. He made beautiful things. But I'm confused about this next set of how he actually is able. He finds Erid El and she had strayed far and she saw a gleam of white in the dim land, right? And I think this says

that she was the gleam of white.

Oh, she was the gleam of white. Never mind. Yeah. He, and she was very fair to Aol, Aol, Ol. Yeah. And he set his enchantments about her so that she could not find the ways out, but drew ever near to his dwelling. And when she was weary with wandering, came at last to his doors and he revealed himself and he welcomed her and led her into the house. And there she remained and he took her to wife. And it was a long time before any of her can heard of her again. Okay. What the crap? What kind of enchantments are these? Like millions of Maya.

I know. What does this guy have? I'm not sure what he's got going on. I read it as like, he's like, you know, he's been in this non-Elmoth force for so long that his like powers over it.

He just kind of closed the borders of his force and like every patch she took led him to or led her towards him. Like, I don't know. Maybe elves just generally have this power. Maybe he is super powerful.

Cause I thought of the dark elves. We actually haven't heard that much about them. So they're the ones who've kind of remained on the fringes. They're not in Thingol's kingdom, but they, they love the stars.

And it's been generally pretty positive whenever they've talked about the dark elves. And then this guy seems like a creeper. But yeah, so I'm just genuinely fascinated. What are these enchantments? Is this something very specific that they can work this magic or is this like just their closeness to the trees? The trees are friends with them? I know, we're never going to know the answers to this. I know. This is the mystery of soft magic systems. Slowly.

It sounds because, so she must have been worn down because it does say, but it's, it's not a very comforting sentence. It says, it is not said that Erdell was wholly unwilling. I know. Nor that her life was hateful to her for many years. It's such an understatement. I love it. So you get the impression like, was she forced to stay there or did she choose to stay?

I mean, it sounds like an in between. It does say that he forbade her to seep the sons of Faein or any others at the noldor. So at some point she wanted to go at least to visit and was forbidden. So there, there, I, I get the impression of a growing resentment.

Yes. But they do have a child who says his father gave him no name until he was 12 years old. That's an interesting point of, you know, he's not following what must be Elvin customs. So it's just, just an interesting point where he is again off from the standard. I almost feel like these are like boondock elves.

You know what I mean? I don't know. Yeah. Actually, you know, that's a better question. Like are all dark elves kind of like this?

Were they just out in the forest living their own, I don't know, off their wilderness vibe?

Yeah, their cultures seem a little bit different. I don't know. So we did Madeleine who is a son and he's, he's described as not like, he's described as kind of, I got Faein or vibes out of him. Yeah. Not overwhelmingly powerful or like amazing or beautiful or whatever, like the way Faein or was described, but still like, you know, a strong specimen.

And I thought it was so fascinating. It said he could read the secrets of hearts beyond the mist of words, the mist of words. So elegant.

Good phrase. Good phrase. So it looks like he learns a lot from his father. So they have a relationship of sorts and then it says, but it is said that made him loved his mother better.

And so she's spending a lot of time telling him, you know, like the family stories of the Nordor. I thought this was an interesting line. It says, but most of all that which he heard of Turdon and that he had no air.

Okay. All of these things he laid to heart, but most of all those things he heard of Turdon and that he had no air. So I see right from the beginning, this kid is ambitious. He seems to himself, I have an, what an uncle would it would be? I have an uncle out there who doesn't have an air.

And he's saying, I'm not satisfied with this forest. Right.

He's also kind of like, get me out of here. Yep. Yep. So that's what's going on. We're having some issues. Madeleine is making noises like he'll leave the forest and his father says, no, you shall obey me or I will set you in bonds. And Madeleine did not answer, but was cold and silent and went abroad no more with Ayle because sometimes they did little trips and Ayle mistrusted him. So we see this like this breach in their relationship right away. I also think it's interesting that we did this several times when something happens, it's always Madeleine did not answer. Like he held his silence in all these like really tense situations. He's kind of broody as my interpreter.

Yeah. I get the impression that he's broody and maybe he's tall, dark and handsome. I don't know. He's got dark hair. He could be the new Ayridhorn. Oh gosh.

I don't know. It is funny because so he says, I want to go away. And then his dad says, you're of the house of Ayle, right? Like you're my house. I get this sense. You are not a no door. There's a little bit of a competition going on here between the mom's family and dad's.

And then I think there's a little bit of this like cinder and versus no door stuff because I think Ayle is extremely prejudiced against the no door with reason. And so he's like, why on earth would you even want to be no door? Yeah. You know? Like you're half but like try to forget it essentially is the impression I draw.

Yeah. And this is, oh man, this is so interesting because this is kind of bringing up almost like settlers versus like people who they all originated from that land but like stayed.

They've been diverged long enough. He said, it's like you are the land of the Tularee. Like this land is the land of the Tularee. Like basically all these other people aren't native almost to this land or they were. We're seeing the play out here. Right. Yeah. And we're seeing exactly that thing play out.

Yeah. I thought this was an interesting scene. So at some point enough is enough and Ayle is off on a trip and Madeleine wants to leave and he says lady, he says to his mother, lady, let us depart while there is time. I'll skip a few and it says shall we not seek for Dondolin?

You shall be my guide and I will be your guard. I just thought it was really interesting the way he like talked to her. He doesn't call her mother.

He calls her lady. It's just an interesting choice. It's very respectful.

Yeah. It is very respectful but also distant and like just so formal. Like do we know, I'm trying to recall how did Feyn or refer to his father? Did he just call him father? Yeah, I thought so. Yeah.

So it just stood out to me. But she agrees and so they go off and this is like something out of like a bad movie, right? Where like they leave and then Ayle comes back from his business trip two days early to find his wife in bed with somebody, you know? It's exactly that kind of scene where like the guy comes back and his wife has been cheating but mostly he just finds her gone. Yes.

And this one he just finds her gone.

Which is a big deal. Yep. And so then we have Ayle is trying to hunt them down and he runs into these guys who I like don't know who these guys are. Celerdorm and Turifin. Yeah. Who are these guys?

Turifin sounds familiar. Yeah.

I don't think they're Noldor. I think they're just regular star who don't like Ayle, which is pretty explicit that they don't like them. Yeah. And he kind of tries to lie to them to be like, oh yeah, I was a my wife came to visit you and I was totally coming too. So he's trying to lie. But I thought there was an interesting sentence here where Turifin says to him, he says, Turifin looked darkly upon Ayle, do not flaunt the title of your wife before me for those who steal the daughters of the Noldor and wed them without gift or leave. Do not gain kinship with their kin.

So maybe these guys are Noldor actually now that I think of it. And then it says by the laws of the elder, I may not slay you at this time. And then he basically warns him like, you know, go back home.

There's no point pursuing your wife, etc. I was trying to hear what is this laws of the elder and like the way he says it, I may not slay you at this time. Like he's like, but next time I see you. So once you've seen your enemy twice, you get to slay them. I just kind of curious what law he might be talking about.

And like that he cares. I don't think he'll know. He still cares about those. I don't know. Yeah.

So yeah, we have this encounter, which basically he's using this to fish for information. So now he knows roughly their direction and he finds them and sees them going into the secret place. And now they're in there with Targon in the audience chamber and he's basically been pulled out of the windows. And then Targon is there and he's saying, Hey, I am here to retrieve my wife and my son.

Give them back to me. And this is his command to Madeleine. He says, come Madeleine, son of Ayl, your father commands you. Leave the house of his enemies and the slayers of his tin or be a terse.

Yeah, definitely like this, this like enmity towards an older is very strong. And what happens is, but Madeleine answered nothing. She's so like, he's always about holding his silence. And this moment right here, I just really got big Denethor vibes like bad dad.

Yeah, yeah, I do get that. I do see that. Yeah. But then that really impresses. That really impresses his uncle, right? Targon.

Well, yeah, Targon basically says, yeah. So I mean, he ends up saying this choice only is given to you to abide here or to die here. And so also for your son. So he's like, you know, you're not allowed to leave. You're going to keep my secret kingdom secret.

Yeah. And then I love this bit. Ayl pulls out a javelin hidden beneath his cloak. Just like how many things are you stuffing under there? Must have been a shorty one. But yeah, he's got this huge javelin that he pulls out of nowhere and he throws it at Madeleine saying, the second choice I take and for my son also, you shall not hold what is mine.

And again, huge Denethor vibes. For her at all. Yep. And then Erdell launches herself in front of it, tapes it in the shoulder.

Yeah, awful. We find out later that the scene is poisoned and Noah knew it. So she dies, of course. And that is when they grab Ayl and say, you know what?

We're going to punish this guy. And they cast Ayl over the corridor and so he ended. Again, massive Denethor vibes, death by falling. Also, I'm pretty sure that's how not every time, but a lot of the Greeks would tell people this way. They'd throw him off a cliff or something. So it's a classic punishment, but like very distinctive to our taste, I think.

It's a dramatic story. It's so dramatic. The thing that I thought was interesting too is like, because you were saying how Maglen was just like not responsive through this, right? And not very interested in his father. But it was saying like the king listened with wonder to the story that Erdell told of them escaping and everything else.

And he looked with liking upon Maglen, his sister son, seeing in him one to be worthy, worthy to be accounted among the princes of the Noldor. So this whole thing goes down and the uncle is like, you could defend your father, right? But you didn't. You defended your mother and you brought her here. And that has bought in some liking. Yeah. But his mother's family. Yeah.

And I think that's fair. And you know, you could almost see this going happily after this. Like Maglen's like, all right, I'm going to mourn my mother, but like, you know, at least my, I'm out of this situation I was in, but it does not go that way. The mother dies. The mother dies. I guess everyone dies. So he's an orphan, but you could see him like maybe in a couple years, like getting moving on and getting past that and having a good life. But man, it doesn't go that way because Maglen loves Idril, who is Turdon's daughter. And guess what? That made some cousins or something.

I don't actually know how cousins work. Let's pretend like it's not his uncle. But it is. And they're very explicit about this says, um, he loved the beauty of Idril and desired her without hope.

The elder wedded not with Kinso near, nor ever before had any desire to do so. So that was interesting. I was like, dang, what mess do you up, sir? Um, and actually there is a small note above here. I can't find it. It's something about Idril, like Madeleine losing favor with Idril. Yeah. Oh, um, let me see. I can't find it.

There was like a moment where like he lost favor with her and it was before all this happened.

And I don't know. Was it because so they brought Ayl or whatever before Turgan, they didn't find he didn't get any mercy. And Madeleine stood by and said nothing and his father Ayl cries out and he says, so you have forsaken me. And, you know, here shall you fail of all your hopes and you're going to die the same death as me. So kind of sad, but it says they cast him over the precipice. Um, and it says, but Idril having seen all this, right? She sees how he's so cold to his father, to her. Yeah, his father was there. That's the moment. And from that day, she mistrusted him.

So the same thing. I think it's so funny. The same thing that the, her dad liked, which was like, oh yeah, you're on your mom's side. You don't care about your dad. Idril looks at them things. There's something wrong with this guy. Idril looks at him and thinks you don't, you're not showing anything. Like kind of to your point of him doing nothing.

There's no love. Like you're not saying anything to your father or like, like it disturbed her, which.

Yeah. And honestly, possibly. Good cause. Um, yeah, it's very interesting. So we did this whole thing where he's like all up in her business from afar. It sounds like, um, and it says, but as the years passed, still, Mablin watched Idril and waited and his love turned to darkness in his heart. Oh boy.

He has a little bit of his weird dad in him.

Yeah, exactly. Well, actually, sorry. The passive before that is also really good. Um, here's the thing. Okay. Idril loved Mablin not at all. And knowing his thought of her, she loved him the less. I mean, she's not like oblivious to this. Obviously, like that would also be awkward. Not going to lie.

Um, that'd be so awkward. Uh, for seemed to her, a theme strange and crooked in him, as indeed the elder ever since have deemed it an evil fruit of the tin slain. So they blame everything on the tin slain. The curse of man does one.

Yeah. Just everything is blamed on that. Uh, whereby the shadow of the curse of man is fell upon the last hope of the noldor. And I think it's interesting that they would call this made and died the last hope of the noldor. I just were just writing off all of the other brothers and princes and everybody. I don't know. Or is it just because he's the next generation and he was showing promise? No idea. At least. And then we did this line.

At least in that city state. It sounds like he doesn't have any other errors.

And so this is the air.

Yeah, perhaps. And then we did this line about his love turning to darkness. Us not a good foreboding. Yeah. I'm very excited. Very excited by this. And he sought the more to have his will in other matters. Shurking no toil or burden if he might thereby have power. Oh boy, brother.

This is not the way. Thus it was in gondolin and amid all the bliss of that realm while its glory lasted, a dark seed of evil was sown. So yeah, I feel like we've just had like at least since paragraphs, maybe an entire chapter's worth of foreshadowing that something's about to go down. And I'm really excited.

Something's about to go down. I don't know what it will be. And I just think it's so fascinating that, you know, Tolkien, you have these epic things that are, you know, people go to war for and it all comes down to like, Feanor's mom dying and the dad remarrying.

Naglin loves his cousin. And, you know, and then you just get this, but it is fascinating how it's like these little idiosyncrasies. I was going to say of men, but just of people, right? Even elves.

It humanizes it and like brings it and makes it more realistic.

It can change you. It can twist you. It can affect your heart. It can affect how you treat people, how you view the world. Like just these small things in your life have the potential for really altering who you are as a person. I don't know. It's wild. Yeah.

Yeah, it's going to be good. So next chapter's chapter 17 of the coming of men into the West chapter title. 18 is even better of the root of the larian and the fall of the golden day.

Yes. A little tiny teaser, little tiny teaser chapter 19, which we looked ahead. I'm being naughty of Baron and Luthien. I've been wanting so close. We're very close. Yeah. I just lost the things happened.

That was really good to me. Baron and Luthien's a long chapter, FYI. It's like, it's a whole tale. Is it most of the books? It's a whole tale. It's not most of the book, but it is like way longer than any of the other chapters.

I do feel like this is somewhat an advantage of I mostly read it on my phone and I can't see how long the chapters are. I'm like, ooh.

So it's like 160-ish to one. So it's about 40 pages maybe. Oh, that is longer. But I have pictures. I have all kinds of stuff. Yeah. But yeah, I will say, so this Baron and Luthien tale was taken and then just added into the Simmerillion because it's a compilation of a series of tales and foundational things. But I've just been really enjoying all these little tidbits and things that I feel like are underlying the universe.

It's been so good. I know more about like L's are more, they're significantly more flesh. Dimensional. Yeah. And I looked at them and think, hmm, there are a lot of naughty ones among you. And so now I'm wondering why we didn't see an evil alpha 2. You know, they did throw.

There's a lot going on. Add R I guess into the Rings of Power, but we've already talked about covered what that would look like.

I don't remember.

In the first competition. Okay, we'll watch Rings of Power again. We'll watch Rings of Power again. And we'll make a podcast about it.

Okay. All right. That wraps us for this.

That wraps us. Have a great night guys. Bye. Yep. Ciao.

Bye. Bye. Bye.