Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia. Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, beatalons and lafflons. We are excited to have you as a new friend on this journey with us. Welcome to Speak Friend and Enter, a Lord of the Rings podcast. Hello, hello. Welcome back.

Howdy. Okay, so little did we know when we started the Semmelrallian, we were looking forward to our chapter on Baron and Luthien and we saw it was hefty and we were like, yes, we're ready for some, some drama, some intense storyline. And it was intense.

It was action factors. It was more than we had anticipated. It was more than we had anticipated. But then just like one chapter away, we were looking and we were like, wait a second. What is this chapter 21 Turin Turinbar? It is so long.

Yeah, we were instantly suspicious. Like, why is this as long as Baron and Luthien? I've never heard of Turin. And guys, oh my gosh, Lydia and I were really struggling to not discuss this. It's so messed up. I'm so excited. What, what a chapter. Like, I just, I feel like this was a completely new story and new Tolkien. Yeah. So when we were trying so hard not to discuss it previously, I said something like, why are we in a new genre here?

What is happening? Tolkien has tricked us. He's like, I'm going to give you my Silmarillion and you're going to think you know what's going on. And then halfway through, we're going to switch genres. And it's Greek tragedy, which is what it is. This is so heavily influenced by great tragedy.

Oh my gosh. Well, it's so interesting because we've talked about how he's been influenced by Norse mythology. We've talked about like trying to create that old English folklore. And I will say I have felt like a lot of it has felt a little bit not light because the Silmarillion has a lot of detail, but it felt more like more like folklore or folk tale to me. And it was this chapter that I was like, this feels like a Shakespearean soap opera. This feels like Greek tragedy. This feels like something a lot more detailed and deeper than just some of the history of like the gods or random stuff. Yeah.

It is definitely a chapter. We've had these occasionally and sometimes we don't know why we have them. Initially, when we started going deep on Fingal and we were both like, who is this guy? Why do we have to know who he is? And we have had previous chapters where we dive deep on a certain person or a certain person's family and we like learn a lot about them. And this is one of those.

But it feels like it is a different genre because of the tenor of it, the tone. Previously, we have had good things and bad things happen. And this is just all bad all the way through. The chapter 20 that we discussed, we can kind of touch a little bit about like, OK, we're seeing curses. We're seeing curses be played up as like essentially invincible, all powerful. You can never escape them.

And this chapter is where you really feel that come home. And they're affecting men now because we were talking about the curse of no one. Oh my gosh, it's true. It feels infectious.

And how this is starting to affect men and men's heritage where I think they had no clue that this was a thing and that this was coming for them. Yeah. Let's just dive in.

It's so bad. OK, so of Turin Turinbar. I've never heard this name before. I had heard of Hurin, but that's because there's a book called The Children of Hurin.

Apparently that book goes more into detail of this story. Oh, no way. I didn't know that. That's what they say halfway through here. So we'll get to that line if I see it again. So what we start off with here is Hurin, who at this big battle in chapter 20 that went so poorly said to Turin, hey, I will cover your retreat. You know, I will defend you to the last.

You should go get out here. Turin does. Hurin remains. He is captured alive, which is a fate worse than death. And Mordoth curses him to sit on a throne essentially and to see everything that's happening and to watch the fate of his family. Watch this. Watch this drama that's about to happen.

And I'm like, dang, I would have blinded myself. So we start off with his wife, Mourwen, who is still living. I know, actually, we like it. Mourwen, Mourwen, so did. So this is the wife of Hurin. She's still living in their ancestral lands where they grew up, et cetera. And at this time, they are now under essentially Mordoth.

He rewarded the East Orleans with not the best lands, but with mediocre lands. But that were people already. That were people already.

So now the Easterlings have come and are basically tormenting these people, repressing them. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, enslaving them and being awful. So that's what's happening now. And it was this was an interesting line. So she is not impacted by this directly because it says so great was the beauty and majesty of the Lady of Dormul, Dormul, her Mourwen, that the Easterlings were afraid and dared not lay hands upon her or her household.

That was really interesting. Obviously, they have these rumors. They say the Easterlings say she's perilous. She's a witch.

She's still in magic and the in-lead with the elves, et cetera. So they she is protected by a rumor, but in fact is poor, doesn't have any help from anyone. There's one person who will help her, who can help her secretly. And it's just it's not going great for her. So she's really worried that her son Turin, this is the son of Hurin, he's eight-ish. And she's really worried that eventually this rumor is going to fall off of her. They're going to come for him and they're going to enslave him. So she sends him away secretly to Dota Thingol.

Which I was surprised. First of all, is she did she grow up around elves? Because it sounds like her family. I don't get that impression because it said because this is key here with her request to Thingol. It says her father's kinsmen had been close to like Baron's father. So that's why she made a request to Thingol is because basically Baron's his son-in-law. And she was like... I don't get the impression that like it's a close relation.

I think this is a desperate. Yeah, I don't know how close it was, but I was curious about those rumors about her. If it was like why they thought she was some kind of like elf witch or something. Yeah, I don't know personally. We may have to look into that.

Maybe we can do a deep dive on her and find out what's behind that if there is anything. But this is where they say that there's a longer tail. So it says more and sent Turin with two aged servants over the mountains to find entry into the kingdom of Doriath. I am impressed.

Thus was a kind of Turin woven and it is told in a long tail the tale of the children. Yeah, okay, cool. What were you saying? I am impressed that King Thingol said yes. Because King Thingol doesn't like nobody. And so I don't know in the fact that she said, oh, I'm gentry. I'm kind of related to your son-in-law Baron.

I don't think we get him. Your son-in-law barons, cousins, cousin twice removed, half son. Yeah, whatever the like most distant relative you can think of.

That's how I feel like this relation is. Yeah, I was also shot when Thingol said yes. He said yes. But good on him. I appreciate that about him. Yeah.

So that's such an interesting point. I mean, Thingol has changed. We have seen him from the beginning to now and it is cool to see his character development.

And I would say that probably Baron and Luthien coming back and I'm sure Luthien softened him to Baron and Baron himself. Obviously, I think they grew to have an accord. So he is softer now towards men than he would have been otherwise. I wonder if this is, I'm actually curious in terms of timeline. I'm not sure if this is after they have both died or... I wonder that too. It's not clear to me. If they're still around. Or if it's just after they've gone away.

Okay, so we have this. Turin is sent off. Morwen was pregnant at the time that she sent Turin off. And so she gives birth to a daughter. This becomes important later. And her name is Nianor. I thought this was a tool which is mourning.

Nobody's getting, even their names are sad. Okay. So Turin made such a Doriath. He is taken in. He's fostered well. And it says for Thiemdl's mood was changed towards the houses of the Elfrins.

So towards certain groups of men. Yeah, yeah. And then what else is happening? So they do ask for Morwen to come and come live in Doriath. Thiemdl sends messengers and she refuses.

She wants to stay in her home. And I was surprised by that, but I don't know. Yeah, and it seems funny.

Obviously that's not good. It's a setup for a lot of drama later. Yeah, it seems funny that she wouldn't be like concerned about her or her daughter's future. She was really concerned about his. But I wonder if that has to do with like him being the son and who his father is, right?

Possibly. Being her and being taken by the more boss. Yeah, and maybe nobody would look at it at like her daughter Nianor and be like, Ah, yes, this will be a famed warrior. We must kill her now. Yeah, yeah.

They're just kind of on the down low. Yeah, I think so. So Turin lives in Thiemdl's halls for nine years.

So what are you looking at? He left when he was eight ish. So he's still young.

He's still young. And then this happens. So Thiemdl sends messengers out every so often to Morwen and Nianor. And then one time the messengers don't come back or they stopped coming back. And so things are more dangerous.

And so Thiemdl will not send anymore. And that's when Turin is afraid for his mother and his sister. Yeah, so he goes to the teen. He asks for armor and he goes out marching to fight. And he goes with this elf, his companion in arms, Beled Truthalian.

So that's important that they're their best buds. So three years pass and he returns again. And you know, he's like, I don't know how to say. Yeah, it just says that he's unkempt. You know, he's been on the road. He looks wild. He just looks beat up essentially. So there's a man, an elf there. I guess I should say there's an elf there who kind of always resented the fact that Turin was Thiemdl's foster son. And so they're seated opposite each other. And he's a man. He's not an elf. Yeah, exactly.

So and he says this comment, which will be important later. If the men of Hithlum, where Turin is from, are so wild and fell of what sort are the women? Do they run like deer clad only in their hair? And this is obviously like terribly insulting. So Turin takes up his cup, throws it at Cerys and injures him seriously.

That's wild. So the next day, Cerys waylades him in the woods essentially. And then Turin chases him over. They fight and then Turin chases him. He basically forces Cerys to run naked as a hunted beast through the woods.

How did he do that? Obviously this is who knows? But this is obviously revenge for that comment that he made, right?

Yeah. And so he's chasing him. He's probably going to tell him because it sounds like Turin has a temper. And then Cerys falls into a tassam and essentially dies. He is broken.

His body is broken on a great rock in the water. This kind of shocked me when I read this. This is like because it's already taking really bad turns. It feels gruesome. Like this reminds me of like those stories of either a high school group or a college click. And when they're like doing initiatory, so they're like kind of angry at someone and they're trying to go after them after revenge. But then it somehow turns into murder. Yeah, like hazing on rock.

Yeah, like it feels morbid very soon into the beginning of it. Yeah. And I mean, if you look at it, he's what? 17 years old. So it's about the right age for that to be the case. He's young and doesn't have great control of his temper.

Yeah, and very rash. So anyways, Cerys dies and people have witnessed this. And so this guy, Mablon, one of the elves says Turin come home, you know, let's talk to single about this, seek the judgment of the king.

But Turin deeming himself now an outlaw and fearing to be held captive fleas. Yeah. That was interesting. I could see why he would do that. But then he's young and he's stupid. And he goes into the woods and he finds himself with a band of desperate men.

And these are these are outlaws, actually. And I thought maybe this would be where the story would turn around. It would be like Robin Hood. I thought it was going to be like the Maryman. I thought he was going to be like an outlaw and like kill orcs and give money to the poor.

But they immediately let you down because in that sentence is and their hands returned it in all elves and men and orcs. And I was like, whoa, that's kind of interesting. What is happening here?

It's a little depressing. He became a real bandit, not like a not like a Robin Hood bandit. He's he's a real outlaw who's out there telling people who don't deserve it probably. So all this is happening.

Oh, and I think it's important also, like to your point, like I'm getting this arc of this. This boy who's like choosing violence, but he thinks of himself as misunderstood, right? Oh, yeah. And so he names himself Nathan, meaning the wronged. And I'm like, OK, dude, who's been wronged?

You like, I don't think so. He was definitely provoked. But he's not.

Yeah, he's not taking responsibility for what he did. You've been taken in. You've been fed. Like, obviously, you haven't heard from your mom and sister, but you were there three years.

You couldn't find them. So like, yeah, I don't know. It's just he's he's has a to do. He has an attitude.

Yeah. And like, it is interesting the way he names himself. This is a recurring theme for Turin. He is always naming himself, depending on his circumstances.

And that one was interesting to me because he is he was wronged by this elf, Seiros, who was rude. But when things took. Oh, yeah.

And incredibly insulting, right? And and I did that. And then Seiros attacks him later in the woods. And, you know, that's another instance where I was like, OK, yeah, you you have been wronged, but he is escalating. He escalates.

Yeah. And doesn't seem to realize that he's escalating. So like, actually, that's a great way to describe him. He is constantly escalating. Seiros insults him with words. He throws a cup.

Yeah. Seiros attacks him in the woods. He tases him down and tries to kill him in the woods. You know, so it's very interesting when this line came that they were turning their hands at his elves and men and all those like, oh, this is giving me a bad. Yeah, this is not the group of people you want to be with. Yeah.

Yeah, this is not good. And then it says that while this is happening, they were searching for him. They couldn't find him, but Fingal pardoned him, holding him wronged. So he's he is actually making his name states true. This new name that he chose for himself.

And basically what happens is Beled Strongbow, who is his companion in arms. Yeah, a friend. The friend. He is grieving what happened and he says, I want to go find him. And Thindal says, yes, go ahead. So Beled goes out to go find him. And he finally succeeds.

It takes some time. Basically, the outlaws find Beled first while turn his way and they kind of like torment him. It's not clear how badly this is where I kind of realized that. Stuff was not maybe as hunky-dory as I thought it's because it says he came upon their layer and he turned was gone. And so the outlaws sees Beled bound him and treated him cruelly. And it says the return returned. And when he sees his good friend, right, like someone who he is emotionally positive to and how these group of people has treated him, it says he was stricken with remorse for all their evil and lawless deeds. Right.

He's getting a glance at what he's actually becoming. Yeah. And the way it's phrased, like they torqued, like, I don't know if torture might be too strong a word, but the way they treat Beled is not like the first time they've done that.

And 100% Turin was not gone out of camp every time. Yeah. So like he is a part of this sort of behavior. But he is remorseful in this moment, in this moment. He releases Beled.

They renew their friendship. And it says Turin first word, that's where that's forward. War or plunder, it's all a dense war or plundering.

All save the servants of Inbad, which is interesting to me because later we'll get back into that. That will come back up again. I was surprised by that. Which I was like, okay, a little bit of a positive turn. Yeah. Yeah.

We think there's going to be a positive turn. And Beled says this. He says, Hey, Turin, you've been parted and come home. Yeah. And Turin refuses.

Which is like, why dude? Do you have that much? I know Thingol isn't the best guy, but he like took you in.

You haven't been able to find your mom and sister. Like, I don't know. Yeah.

It was really interesting. It says in the pride of his heart. Yeah. So yeah, I can't quite comprehend it. Like he's willing to stay with these outlaws rather than return back. Okay.

My proposal, my proposal, I'm picturing this as a movie or a TV show, right? And I'm seeing like in those years that he's under Thingol. Thingol is doting on him, but when Thingol turns away, it's all the other elf boys being like, Ooh, look at who's the teacher's pet. Ooh, look at this. And you get this impression of like, there was probably a hostile environment.

And even though these outlaws aren't great, right? In my impression, they're men. They're not elves. They're men like him.

And so he's finding for the first time, probably since he was eight, when his mom sent him away, a community of people like him, individuals that are men. Yeah. And that's probably exactly what it is. I am probably underestimating that.

But yeah, that's probably it. So he refuses to leave. Vellad leaves having been unable to convince him and says they depart in friendship yet in sadness. So Vellad returns, he tells Thingol what's going on.

And basically he asks if he can go back to Thingol, back to Turin and fight with him. Which really surprised me. Yeah. So he's a good friend.

He's a good friend. And Vellad asks for a sword. And this is interesting. There are, he asked for a sword of worth. And there seem to be a few hanging around. There seem to be a few hanging around, like not like innumerable.

There are only a few to pick from. And one of them is a sword on Glauco. Yeah. And this one was crafted by Ayl, who was father of Madeleine. And we know what went on there. Yeah. And we know Ayl was a not great guy.

Yeah. And Malian specifically says, Malia looked at the blade and she said, there is malice in this sword. The dark heart of the smith still dwells in it. It will not love the hand it serves.

Neither will it abide with you long. And I looked at that and I thought, man, if it was me, I would have chosen any other sword. A different sword. Maybe even a normal sword. But Vellad is not deterred.

He says, nonetheless, I will wield it while I may. And I think Malian, I think I'm sure she saw what was going to happen to him. And so being unable to persuade him, she did something else.

This is kind of cool. She gave him of Lembus. Lembus, Brad. And it talks about how like the keeping of Lembus belonged to the queen alone, et cetera, et cetera. And because she knew that Vellad was going to give to her in some of this bread, it was interesting that they note here. For the nothing, nothing did Malian show greater favor to turn than in this gift.

For the elder had never before allowed men to use this waybred and seldom did so again. So yeah, it's an interesting note. So it's kind of a special touch to like Delagio Divinette to the fellowship. And it's interesting. I loved that part because, okay, I have just started making sourdough bread. Oh, have you?

I have. And if anyone knows, I think that's sourdough. How have you come onto this disease after, you know, how many years out are we from Corona? My sister-in-law, she made it for a family weekend. I was like, this is delicious. And she was like, oh, she learned me.

And with the, it's not that hard. And I said, really? And so she gave me a starter and I've been doing it ever since. It's only been a couple of weeks.

It's only been a couple of weeks. But I'm scared of bread. I made bread like once a year and every time I do it, like, ah, is it going to rise? What's going to happen?

It's terrifying. Honestly, some loves has been better than others. But the reason I bring this up is I feel like sourdough is really interesting because there are starters, right? This bacteria, which you get in your, in your flour and water. There are starters that have been, that have lasted for centuries since like the 1800s.

They get passed down. And so lamb is bread, even in Lord of the Rings, I was like, that is some cool bread, right? It fills you up.

There's going to be some tradition there. You only eat a couple of bites and now we know why it's freaking God magic. It's millions. It's millions baking. And I picture this as like, I picture this as kind of like a sourdough where like this bread, this recipe, this little bit of magic. So do you think the source of lamb is bread is Melian then? Well, it's her special bread, isn't it?

Let's see. I couldn't tell if it was like more broadly spread among the elves or if like she started it off or not. I liked that version though. I liked the idea that Melian was like, this is my special bread. This is like her secret recipe. But like, I don't want to get fat.

So I only have like one piece. That's actually hilarious. But yeah, I think of it because we always talk about her witchcraft and how wily she is. And so I was picturing it as like her special recipe, right? That little bit of magic. I love that.

And then like the sourdough, maybe passing it down from the generations. Yes, exactly. Yeah, I love that. I'm into it.

I buy into that head pan. So she gives them lambless bread and bellied leaves with all this stuff, his sword, his bread and he finds Turin or rather while he's gone, while he's off doing this stuff. Turin is doing stuff as well. And so they had lived in this area, these outlaws and they are looking for a more secure place and they came upon some dwarves and it says this and it checks at a time of evening that they came upon three dwarves who fled before them. All right. And let me just recall again. So they capture this dwarf and they shoot out one of the other ones that please. Let me recall it did that not two seconds ago Turin has sworn that he would not attack anyone but servants of Aynban.

And I just like, did we drop this thread? What is happening here? Is the implication that these dwarves are working for Mordoth? It was not clear to me and I in this moment choose to believe that Turin is a baddie.

Well, it doesn't seem. He instantly went back to his outlaw ways and forgot. Exactly. Where it's like, okay, holding this guy is ransom or capturing this dude. Maybe you're not killing him but also not the best. Well, they shoot at the other guy. I mean, imagine if I took a gun and I shot at somebody and I was like, oh yeah, I totally did not mean to kill him.

That would never hold up in the court of law. That was not my intent. Yeah. Yeah. So I was, I was that caught my eye.

I was not sure what's going on there. But they captured this dwarf and the dwarf's name is Nim. And he pleads for his life, offers them as ransom his hidden halls. And so Turin spares him and says, where is your house? So mim leads him there and it's on this hill.

I'm on route. And they're these late secret passages. They go in and when they go in, they find that of course the dwarf that one of his men has shot at is dead and it's mim son. Oh, interesting. It's change over this.

It says pity arose in Turin's heart and he said to him, alas, I would recall that shaft if I could. Yeah, we were just like, why did you shoot at him, dude? I know. And he kind of says, we're gonna call, mim had called the place the house of ransom. And he says, yes, it will be the house of ransom.

Because if I ever get gold, I will give you some gold for your son's life, et cetera. So I don't know. They were actually surprisingly able to kind of live together in peace. Yeah. So men after this was chilling with the outlaws in his house, which for me, I would be a little upset at these roommates. Yeah.

And he is not. And it's kind of an interesting way that men and these doors are described there. They're talking about them as exiles from previous dwarf cities who have fallen onto bad times, hard times. They feel that they were driven out by the noldor. Their Smithcraft has fallen. They're diminished. They call them petty dwarves.

I actually. Which was really intriguing. I love this chapter because we don't hear much about dwarves. You kind of get the sense that they're hidden away. And I don't know if this really, like, I love having them in the story.

And also, I think maybe there was an alignment here because they feel like outlaws are exiles themselves. Right? Yeah. That's what I was going to say. I was like, outlaws living without laws.

I did it. And it was only mim and his two sons. So it sounds like they had plenty of room in the, in the house.

The impression I got. So they lived there for a time. And yeah, and it says now at last they had dwindled and died out of Middle Earth. All the petty dwarves all saved mim and his two sons.

And I guess I don't know if that means his one son now that the other one died. Yeah. So in my head, does this mean because we, in the Hobbit, we kind of get a sense of like, there are these great halls or there are these big mountains that a lot of dwarves live in these big mountain kingdoms. But are they saying kind of like outside of that, there were all these doors kind of living on their own, but without kind of a big hall, a big mountain kingdom, that community. That was the impression I got.

The doors kind of. Like a diminished race of dwarves. Dying out. They had less Smithcraft. They had less.

And I think those dwarves are the ones that are dying out. Exactly. Yeah.

And I am intrigued, I don't know if we'll ever find this out, but I am intrigued to know what led to the schism that led to the petty dwarves being exiled. Yeah. Or was it them trying to live a different life? Less kingdoms. It sounds like they were cast out.

Okay. No, it sounds like they were cast out to me. Yeah. So to my thought, they did something. Yeah. And I want to know what it is.

What did they do? Tell me the tea. Yeah, pretty much. So there's another theme that happens here. So now Turin and the doors are living together. And then it says this, the winters worsened in Beleriand as the power of Anbad grew.

And honestly, that just spoke to my heart. Yes. Cold is evil. Cold is evil.

I do hate winter. So that was a funny note to me. And then we have Beled who returns and finds Turin.

I don't know how he found him in this house. I know. It's unbelievable. All these people finding each other without cell phones.

It could never happen nowadays. So this was interesting. He comes to the outlaws. He comes to Turin. He lives with them. He's respected. He's fascinating to the outlaws because of his strength.

And I'm sure they have not seen too many else close up. And then it says this, the hatred of Mim for the elf that had come into Bar and Donwed, which is the name of the house, grew ever deeper, grew ever greater. And he sat with Ibn Hisan in the deepest shadows of his house, speaking to none. But Turin paid now a little heed to the dwarf. And that was very sad. I don't know. Again, why does Mim hate this elf so much? I don't know. I don't know. Is this like an artifact of, I don't know. Is this an artifact of the battle of chapter 20? Is it an artifact of one?

Is there some kind of fallout of this? So that wasn't clear. Obviously, we're now seeing that the hatred between dwarves and elves is rampant.

Old. At least on the dwarven end. We haven't seen, but like you said, dwarves kind of feel like they're missing from this story right now. We haven't had that much of them. So that was another question in my mind.

Like what's going on here? I know, because I like the leg and so I didn't. And I like Mim. So. Yeah. So that was interesting.

All right. So now what's going on? Basically, Beled and Turin, they live in their house. They're like, I don't know what to call it.

They call it a house, but like their caves in Amun Rood. And they start going out and fighting and they start earning themselves a reputation, which is bad because nothing in this chapter is good. So it says the fame of the deeds of the two captains, which is cool. I like that name for them. The fame of the deeds of the two captains was heard and in Anbad also they were known then Morgoth laughed. And she was like, oh, that didn't be such a bad feeling.

Oh, oh. And I went a little thing that came up in this section as well that I thought was so fascinating is so they're talking about kind of this family, this people or outlaw group of outlaws, because Beled comes and then it does like this little tiny paragraph about and it goes kind of broader, more esoteric and it says, who knows the councils of Morgoth, right? And it does this little passage about like, while all of this is going on, like Melkor is kind of, you know, bending his malice, perceiving more, doing all of this stuff. And at the end, I thought this was so interesting of this passage. It said that he was reaching out kind of like his mind and his perception around the land. And it said, weighing in his malice, all the tidings that came to him and perceiving more of the deeds and purposes of his enemies than even the wisest of them feared, save only Mellie and the Queen.

To her, often the thought of Morgoth reached out and there was foiled. And I thought, oh my gosh, is he like trying to telepathically? Get into the mind of Melian? Like, he's like, oh, Amaya, hey there. Yeah, exactly. Imagine being Melian, you're in your kitchen, cooking your lamba, so I know.

And every so often, you just have to like, slash mentally at Morgoth like sit tendril, reaching out to your brain. Horrible. Honestly. Yeah, so she's like in the kitchen cooking and there's like this eldritch evil trying to creep into her mind. Melian. I like her so much more than I used to. So much more honestly, I feel like she is the defender of this whole land, this whole like Middle East, Balyrian area right now. Because the Valar are kind of like. She's holding it together.

Yeah, the Valar are kind of like you made your bed, live in it when it comes to the elves. And so I don't know, I just, I feel like she's like the one thing that's keeping things together. I think so. So what have we got? These two captains.

Basically the two captains. Beled and Turin are winning fame and this comes badly for them because Orcs capture Mim and again under fear of death, he says, yes, I'll take you to my house and I'll show you the secret path in. So and what he tries to ask is he tries to say, Hey, but don't kill Turin because he still has Turin and the or captain promises, of course, he won't be slain. And this is men being foolish because he doesn't know that being captured alive is worse. So then the house is betrayed or come on it.

They kill a bunch of people. Let's see what's going on here. And Annette is cast over Turin. He is in mesh overcome and let away. And Bella gets sorely wounded. What Bella just really wounded. And after all this happened, men, it says, men crept out of the shadows of his house and he sees Beled and with hatred, lawn stored. He takes the sword on Glockle and tries to kill Bella.

That was really interesting to me. I said, what is going on here? Why do they hate each other so much? Why does Mimmy hate him so much?

Yeah. And then Beled takes it. He managed to get the sword and thrust it at him and Mim flees in terror and Bella cried after him, the vengeance of the house of Hador will find you yet.

That was interesting. So yeah, this is just, this is just very dark. So Bella just sorely wounded, but he is a master healer. So physician heal myself. He does, but it's slow. And so he looks, he tries to recover. He looks for Turin, cannot find him. He wants to bury him, but he can't. And he goes looking, still cannot find him. And so he thinks, wait, maybe he's alive.

Yeah. So he thinks maybe he's alive. So he goes out. And when he's going out, he runs across like this wreck of an elf.

He looks old and worn and he did some lumbas and he taught them and guess who it is? It is Gwyndor. So Gwyndor is back.

He's here. And it says, Gwyndor was now but a bent and fearful shadow of his former shape and mood. So what happened was that Gwyndor was taken captive and he was put in the mines. And it doesn't sound like very many people escaped the mines, but a few do.

And this is, this is how he escapes. In the minds of Mordoth, I should say. Yeah, yeah. So Gwyndor tells him, yeah, I saw some people pass by. It was Orcs and they had a captive. So now Gwyn, like now Bellad knows that he's, you know, on the right path. And Bellad and Gwyndor go around and they sneak in and they sneak into the Orch camp and they grabbed Turin and they did him out. And they can't take him very far. Maybe they're, I don't know.

I guess it sounds like either for stealth reasons or for strength reasons. They can't get him too far. But here's what happens.

This is so wild. Turin is bound in shackles and so Bellad takes his sword and he cuts the shackles. But it says the blade slipped as he cut the shackles and Turin's foot was pricked. And he was aroused into a wakefulness of rage and fear and seen one bending over him with a native blade. He left up with a great cry believing the Orcs were coming into torment him and grappling with him in the darkness. He seized and locked and slew Bellad to Thalil thinking of a foe. This was rough. Oh man.

This was so rough. This reminds me of, honestly, I said Shakespeare at the beginning of this because there's another reason towards the end. But this reminds me of Enromio and Juliet.

Do you remember when Enromio basically says, I can't fight? Who's Juliet's cousin or whatever? Is it Tybold?

Tybold, yes. A family member who's like, basically you're wretched. I'm going to have to fight you. And he says, I can't fight you, right?

Like you're my family. And then Enromio's best friend is like, I'll fight you for him. You know what I mean? And he like, and he gets killed. And but this is even more brutal because it's his own hand, right? It's like his own, I don't know, just your friend dying in a way.

And I don't know. I just, Turin, Turin, he is constantly like these like these fits of rage or blindness. This is not the first time nor the last time.

And it's just really interesting that this is how, how it works for him. Yeah. And there's this great storm. And so the lightning comes and he sees Bella's face and he knows what he did.

This is interesting. Turin stood stone still in silence, staring on that dreadful death, knowing what he had done. And so terrible was his face that window tower down upon the ground and dare not raise his eyes.

It's just like, that was a great way of describing the impact here. So now Bella is dead. And Turin, there's a storm and the next morning, Gwyndor tries to get Turin, tries to talk to him essentially, tries to rouse him. Tries to get him out of there because the orcs are waking up. Yeah. And it says Turin sat crazed and unwitting on the slopes of Tower of Nefuen, bearing a burden heavier than their bonds, than the orc bonds, which is true.

Like he's, he's done terrible things here. So he gets Gwyndor gets him up, they bury Bella and Gwyndor takes him to this lake, which is this was interesting. It says, Ivern's Lake is endless laughter guarded from defilement by Ulmo Lord of Waters. Yeah. That was interesting.

So it's like Ulmo's favorite lake. Cool. Did we? Oh, this reminds me of, um, maybe it was gondolin. Remember, it was like this crater in the city and Ulmo had secret waterways and he like led them to gondolin. Right. So this is like one of his secret waterways. Yeah.

So it was really cool. Um, and it says Turin, Nilton drank from that water and suddenly passed himself down and his tears were unloosed at last and he was healed of his madness. So then we have, he creates a lament for Bella. Um, and he finally has a conversation with Gwyndor. He's not caring who this was just going robotically wherever Gwyndor put him. Um, and so Gwyndor tells him the story of who he is and that he knew his father. Um, and it says this rumor of who and Runs Rainbad and that he still defies Mordoth and Mordoth has laid a curse upon him and all his tin.

Turin says, I love the response that I do believe said Turin. That was a heavy hitting moment. Yeah. Just like, I believe it. I'm living it. That's all.

He doesn't even know how much he's living it. Yeah. This is just to be getting. That's sad. Yeah. It's so sad.

I just, this whole, like I said, this is just to be getting it gets worse. Um, and I don't know. It wasn't clear to me where Tolkien was going with the story. It's still not clear. Yeah. Having read the entire chapter, like, is it just trying to show the power of curses or what? Um, it's show.

Yeah. I do think it's interesting because most of the men that get a highlight in Tolkien's world, they're very heroic and they're very like, I don't know, like Aragorn or even Boramir has like some of those redeeming qualities. Turin was very heroic. Turin was very heroic. I don't find Turin very heroic.

I don't find Turin very. Or it's like all of, all of his heroism is twisted to a bad end every time. I almost feel like, I don't know. I think it's so interesting where it's like here you have someone who was raised by elves. His father was a heroic person. And yet rather than, I don't know, maybe going a different path, he's, he's choosing very much a path of like violence and misunderstanding. Yeah. And it's hard to say it's totally his fault because in a lot of different cases, like, okay, yeah, that's, that's understandable. Yeah. But it's like when every single decision you make turns out for the worse, it's like, whoa, that is what feels like the curse, right? Um, just keeps coming back.

Yeah. So Turin names himself again. He says, I'm at our way in the son of Umarth, which is to say the son of ill fate.

Yeah. And so Gwendor gets him. They, they take him to the elves of Narderthrand. And this is the name that Turin has in his time with those elves. And there is an elf there. And also there's a whole paragraph here about how Turin's very handsome. Um, and then there's an elf, the daughter of the teen of Narderthrand. Her name is Fendulis and she recognizes Gwendor and he loves her. And it sounds like it's reciprocated. So, um, what else is going on?

So we learn more about Turin. He's living with them. He's fighting with them.

Um, he rides around. He's got his black sword and he wears a dwarf mask into battle, which I thought was, that was pretty cool actually. Um, it's, it's fun to see him.

I know it's fun to see him pick up these little different culture things. And this is, this is another interesting example of like where he has, he has no real place in the world. You know, he is a man raised among elves, but he doesn't fit in there. He wears a dwarf mask into battle.

Um, he uses his like cool elf sword. He's just like, he really does not fit in anywhere. He's trying to fit in.

And this is the sword. He's like taking on these different pieces of culture that don't belong to him. Yeah. But he can't, yeah.

We should also comment. So he has his curse from his father, but he's also taken up the cursed sword from Beleg. So the sword that he killed Beleg with, he takes it as his own. Yeah. And it's bad, bad, bad idea. Um, so then we have another sadness. So the heart of Findalus was turned from Gwyndor and a dents her will.

Her love was different to Turin, but Turin did not perceive what had be fallen. That was interesting. Um, Gwyndor notices and I thought it was interesting how he dealt with it.

Um, and I thought he did a very good job. He says, you know what, let no grief lie between us. So he's talking to Findalus. Um, you, the way he talks about it, he's like, you know, he's like, you know, he's like, you know, Mordoth has laid my life in ruin.

You I still love go with her love leads you yet beware. And so he tells him, um, he tells her, like, it's not really fitting that else should marry men. Um, talks to her about like how brief their lives are, et cetera.

They leave us in widowhood while the world lasts. That's just a really interesting phrase. So he warns her in general terms, like, you know, Elphaman, don't do it.

It hasn't worked out great. And we, this is not so long after Baron and Luthien. And so it's, it's an interesting contrast. It's like, well, can you say that Baron and Luthien ended well or not? It's hard to say. Um, because that, that ad in is a tale of mixed endings.

Like there is happiness, but there's also deep grief. Um, so he warns her in general terms and then he warns her very specifically. Hey, listen carefully.

This guy who is going by a secret name is really Turin, son of her in, and he is cursed. Yeah. Yeah.

Um, yeah. So that was interesting. Um, and I thought her reaction was interesting as well. She says she was long and thought, but at last she said only Turin, son of her in, loves me not nor will. And I wonder how much of that was prophecy.

Like, does she have a touch of the prophecy? So, he eventually, Turren eventually learns what happened here, when in their discussion it sounds like, and he was wrathful, of course. He is always wrathful, and it's never good. And what he's angry about is the fact that Gwinder told them his real name. And he says, you know, you've done me ill, you betrayed me, you call a doom upon me, by which I would be hid. And that seems to be how he tries to hide from his fate by changing his name constantly.

And I thought Gwinder's answer was great. He says, the doom lies in yourself, not in your name. And that is so true. It's just like, you cannot run from this. You can't change your name, you can't hide from it, it is attached to you.

So. Ah, man, it also makes me think, though, like, I don't know, because we were talking about family, and specifically this curse was like on the children of Turren, and it's like, Turren is a name, right? It's a very like you're related to this person, this family, this name. I wonder, because it's almost like doom lies in yourself. Is he saying like it lies in your actions, like the things that you're choosing to do and how you're how you're living your life. That's a good point, because he's not making good decisions.

Yeah. Or at least he has not, he is not in the past and he won't in the future. So that's a good point. I had a thought of that way. I thought of it more as you can't hide from this because it's attached to your being.

But being attached to like your actions as well. Maybe maybe it went or does see that. I don't know.

There's so many, there's so many ways to read it. Yeah. So what's going on here now following this is that he stays with them. He he runs under the name of the black sort of Narderthrand.

And he kind of he changes the way they fight. So we had talked about how Narderthrand had fallen into like ways of secrecy, like they they use ambush and stealth and secret arrows, etc. Because the elves are not in a great spot anymore. They're like, well, they're not in a great spot anymore. And they had started turning that way earlier. But this is a dense the way Turin lights the fight. Yeah. And he tried and he kind of convinces them. No, go out openly, build bridges, fight in the open. And this works briefly.

Yeah, it works briefly. So what are we doing to do here? Oh, yeah, this is great. And this is so funny to me in that time of respite and hope. So we don't meanwhile, his mother at last fled from Doriloman and goes to Fingal's halls and then she's grieved because Turin is not there.

Yeah, of course. And nobody knows where he went, etc. So now we know that she's with Fingal. So time has passed.

I just like, honestly, this is like the one moment in this entire chapter where it's like there is a small time of respite and hope and it is so brief. So let's roll on to the next bad thing. All right, what is happening here?

Let me see. Oh, yeah. So they're fighting in the open and basically it's open enough that a huge army comes to them and starts killing them all and they start losing. Or else the elves are defeated. The land right.

Yep. The elves are driven back and it says, I think they even crossed the bridge or maybe that's later. But they say on that day all the pride and hosts of Nardr found withered away. And the teen was slain in the forefront of the battle and Gwendoor was wounded to the death.

Yeah. But Turin came to his aid and all fled before him and he bore Gwendoor out of the route. So he's done a good thing at last. But like, I mean, this is terrible. I and Gwendoor dies here, doesn't he?

He is this true? I think it's so powerful here. So Turin was upset with Gwendoor, but he takes him out and then Gwendoor, you get the impression is on his last leg and he's like, he says, basically, though I love the son of her and I think it's so interesting. He doesn't call him by his new name.

He says who he is right here. A son of her and yet I drew the day that I took thee from the orcs for thy prowess and thy pride. Still, I should have love and life. He says all of this is because of you. You took my girl and this fight, this battle wouldn't have happened. You took my girl and you convinced everyone to fight like this and like it's come up. Yeah. Yeah. It's very sad.

And then he says to her, you need to leave me. Let me die. Go back to Nardisrand. Save Fendula. He says to him, yeah, to save his girl. And this was, yeah, this is interesting. And this last I say to thee, she alone stands between thee and thy doom.

If thou fell her, it shall not fail to find thee farewell. Yeah. So I had not caught that on the first read here. That's an interesting note. And I just think that's fascinating. I don't know if that's him saying like his own curse of like, I love her. I wonder. And if you don't do right by her, like that's here's another curse or if he's just saying like, Yeah.

Warning him. Her pure love might be the only good thing in your life. Right. Like protect it.

I don't know. I could see it both ways. I could see it both ways. Honestly, I could see it as a terse. Yeah. So Turin's got his third terse on him basically.

And here's what's going on. He goes back to Nardisrand and the sacking is already happening. So the Orcs are killed, everyone. They've captured everyone. And there's a special guest.

Is this one of them? There's a special guest. And our friend, our bestie, Glauron. The dragon.

Okay. Honestly, I love dragons. I think these are cool.

This chapter changed my impression of dragons and like in Tolkien's world and like who they were. Okay. They're very, okay. We'll continue.

We'll continue. Yeah. I mean, they do some interesting stuff.

We have not seen them do before. So Turin basically, he gets there and he goes in. He realizes, you know, I've got to kill everyone here, but might as well start with the dragon. So he tries to strike that Glauron. And it says, without fear, Turin looked into Glauron's eyes as he raised up the sword. And straight way, he fell under the binding spell of the littlest eye of the dragon and was halted, moveless. That was cool.

That was really cool. We have not seen this. We haven't seen this power. It hasn't come up yet. And so he stands still. Glauron taunts him. Go ahead.

Okay. This is what I think is so epic. So we have this power of this dragon to basically like freeze you in your movements, right? But then hypnotize you. But then what's fascinating is, and I don't know if Glauron did his research before, or if dragons are able to look into your soul and see who you really are, because Glauron speaks to him and he says, Turin, evil have been all thy ways, son of Huron. Thankless, fosterling, outlaw slayer of thy friend, thief of love, usurper of Nagathron, captain foolhardy and deserter of thy kin.

Okay. Literally, Glauron leaves no crumbs. He just said everything that we were saying before of like, he is taking every insecurity, every misstep, every bad thing that Turin has ever done, and spitting it out to him. Like in one fell sentence. And he goes even further.

He goes, as thralls thy mother and thy sister live in Dorloman, and misery and want thou art arrayed as a prince, but they go in rags, and for thee they yearn, but thou taris not. Yeah, so it was just wild. And so that was a part where Turin's listening to this and he's like, oh my gosh, you can see into my soul. But then that last part about his mother and sister, he's starting to say, do you see the present and the future too?

Like, do you see what's actually happening to my family? And I think that really captures his attention. And he believes him.

And he believes him. And then this is like a heartbreaking scene. So like we have this picture at the end of the book that's really good. It's like Glauron and then it's Turin with the sword rays and in between them marching from this line of doors and you can see the captive elf maidens. And one of them is Findalus.

And it says she cried out to Turin as she went. But he's frozen and he could not stir. Yeah, just insane. What I think is wild, part of the reason he couldn't stir is he had heard this thing that Glauron said. And it said, him being under the spell of Glauron, which I'm like, wow, that's so cool, hearkened to his words and he saw himself as in a mirror, misshapen by Malice and he loathed what he saw.

Yeah, so like, I think there's two angles of it. This is interesting spell. This is an interesting ability of the dragon to read into your spirit and past. And like, yeah, your mind. And then I think there is also like this almost basilisk quality to its face.

It's like it can freeze you. So I think he was physically held. But I think inside he was even also tormented. Like there is, I don't know if he could have moved, even if he had been physically able. So Glauron finally withdrew his lance and Turin stirred slowly. And then he taught him again about his mother and sister.

And let's see. And this was an interesting thing, but Turin still tries to kill the dragon. And Glauron pulling back swiftly tarred above him and said, nay, at least thou art valiant. And they lie who say that we of our part do not honor the valor of foes.

So that was interesting. So Glauron doesn't kill him. I don't know. I thought that was interesting. It's we did. And we're going in a level deeper on gradians than we have before.

We haven't seen much of them and what they think and how they behave. And and this was cool. Yeah. And I just am fascinated by this because wolves, we got a little inside look into how wolves function in Baron and Luthien because we had the wolf that was going.

And why Sauron's associated with them. Yeah. And we had that wolf going after our hound friend who we love.

Yeah. But and we've had Balrogs. We haven't really gotten inside look into Balrogs, but we very much get the sentence like service servants of Morgoth, right? Like he calls there there. And but this dragon, I don't know, this dragon is intriguing to me because he almost has a level of like I work for somebody, but I also have my own tiers of how I function, how I work with my prey.

How I look and decide the kind of people and the engagements I'm going to enter into. And it's like this creature that's so multi-dimensional that I don't think we've necessarily seen before. Yeah. Yeah, I like him. GLauron is cool. But Turand gets taunted again and basically GLauron says, you know, hurry to your mother and sister because if you don't, you won't make it in time. You don't have time to to save Findalus. Oh, so he says, leave the girl. Yeah.

He's basically saying you need to choose your mother or sister or this girl. And then GLauron is great. I love him.

He's great. So then he turned to his own pleasure is what it says, which meant he burned all the orcs and he dathed all the treasure and lay upon them in the innermost hall and rested a while. He's wild. So all that busy time tormenting people he had to rest.

Speaking evil lies. Yeah, good job, GLauron. You did it.

Sit on your own. Yeah. But yeah, so this is this is interesting. So Turand goes into the woods, starts growing. Ever seemed to him as he went that he heard the cries of Findalus calling his name by Wooden Hill and great was his anguish. But his heart being hot with the lies of GLauron. And he was worried about. He held on his way and turned never aside. So he goes back to Dorolomans. He was worried about his mom and his sister. Yeah.

So he does not say what Gwinder told him to do. Yeah, the girl. Yep. So he gets the Dorolomans finally and he finds that they're not there. And we know they're not there because Morwen went to Findal at last. And GLauron was lying to him. GLauron was viciously lying.

Okay. Did GLauron know? Did GLauron know that saving this girl was key? I don't know. I don't know. I think probably he did.

I think he probably knew something. Fascinating. I'm not sure.

Yeah. So he finds out that his mother and sister are not there. It says that the last threads of GLauron's spell were loosed. And you know, he's filled with hatred and rage and he slew Broda. So Broda is like one of the Easterlings that had taken over in that area. So now he kills a bunch of them and he has to flee. He goes back. His anger just falls everywhere.

And this is a dent. Like he is constantly filled with this wrath that causes him to do. I'm not going to lie to Morwen for Broda, but like he's constantly doing rash things. And now he can never go back to the land of his childhood. And now he can't go back there.

Yeah. So now he's off in the woods again. And he's looking for Findelis in vain.

He was too late for all the trails had grown old. And yeah. So it's like it's been a winter since she was taken. And this was interesting. He does himself another name, Wild Man of the Woods, which is true. So eventually though, he does meet some other woodsmen who give him the news. And it says that, yep, we found them. We chased them, hoping to rescue them.

But they had slain like cruelly slain them. And it says, Findelis, they pinned to a tree with a spear. So she died saying at the last, tell Mormadil that Findelis is here. Mormadil is the name they had with when he was with the Nardathrons. Oh. And it's just like again, there is literally nothing good happening in this chapter.

Like at every turn, it's bad. And I'm just so intrigued by Tolkien. He's like, you know what? Baradain Luthien wasn't sad enough.

Let's do something really to think on. It's like every decision he makes because in Baradain Luthien, there was a lot of like happy coincidences or good timing. There were happy coincidences. Like just when Baradain was about to die because his friend had died, you know, Luthien comes to rescue him or all these things. And it's almost like him saying like, but what if someone was cursed where all their timing and all their decisions never came through?

All coincidences are evil and bad. And yeah. And we're seeing it. We are seeing it. It's wild.

It's like a soap opera. Now. So now he's going with these woodsmen. And there's a man who rules there. His name is Brandeer. So he's with the woodsmen and he grows Haledian. He recovers. He has a time of rest. He takes on a new name there called Turinbar. So many names. And he calls himself Master of Doom.

And I thought, oh boy, that is, that is pride. Also just asking for Doom to find you. Exactly. So like, oh man. Yeah.

And I felt really bad for these woodsmen who do not know the Jonah that they've taped in it. Yeah. Yeah. They should be scared. They should be scared, but they're not scared yet.

They don't know to be scared yet. Okay. So now we're going to like go back a little bit to see what's going on with Morwen and the daughter. So what is happening? So Morwen wants to get news of Turin. So she runs out and things goes like, whoa, we'll send some men with you.

And so he sends men to ride with her and Neonore, the daughter, disguised herself as one of Thingol's people and went with that ill-fated riding. And I just got strong A-1 vibes. Fun.

She was like, I want to go find my brother too. Yeah. Which makes sense. So what's going on? Marbleyn is with them.

We met him before. So they go and they've realized that, you know, I think they go to the Nargothron and they realize that the dragon is there and they think, all right, the dragon probably killed Turin. That's what they're learning. But basically they did caught up in the dragon for a brief time.

Yeah. And he stares at their horses. Morwen's like runs away. It's not clear. Does she die? I don't think so.

Let's see. Oh, no, no, no. She was lost.

They never heard of her again. Oh my gosh. So the dragon comes out, epic dragon glowering.

Yeah. And all the horses are terrified. They statter. Morwen is lost. Nino falls off and then stares into the eyes of the dragon. Somehow, yeah, stares into his eyes. And again, this is where some really interesting like dragon magic is happening. I feel like we have not seen this before.

And he's the worst, of course. So it says, he constrained her to days into his eyes and he laid a spell of utter darkness and forgetfulness upon her so that she could remember nothing that had ever befallen her, not her own name nor the name of any other theme. And for many days, she could neither hear nor see nor stir by her own will.

And then Blaaron left her standing alone and went back to Narderthron. I just look at this dragon. Every time he goes out, he's like, what evil deed can I do today? And then I will rest upon my treasures.

It's wild. And honestly, I wonder if like, Morgault sent him out with like the express purpose of like, make the children of her in hurt. Like make the children make this curse come true. Yeah, I wonder because Glauron can see in your mind, he would know who you are. Yeah. So he's like, make this curse real.

Yeah. So Mablon, one of the elves from Thindal, he finds Nianor and he takes her back. And slowly her strength returns, but her memories are not returning.

And at some point they are assailed by some orcs and she tapes fright and she flees. And girl. And she's so swift. And this line really caught my attention. For she fled as in the madness of fear, swifter than a deer and tore off all her clothing as she ran.

Oh my gosh. Until she was naked. This was really that, that is where I feel like we come full circle, right?

Remember that elf, Seiros, who was teasing her in the beginning, he says, do your women run naked in the woods like the deer? Yeah. Yeah.

And here she is lost her mind. Yeah. Running naked in the woods faster than the deer.

Faster than the deer. Yeah. This is where I felt, whoa, we are reaching some Greek. I don't even know what the word is for this. Cyclicality. Yeah.

The cyclical nature of it was very intense in that moment. So she flees, they cannot find her. Mablon has to go back to Thindal and tell them the news that like, I lost the wife and the daughter.

Oh my gosh. So they're filled with grief, of course, and they go back and forth looking in vain for them for a long time. So Neonore, Neonore is in the woods. She's, you know, says she went warily as a hunted beast and became famished.

Yeah. So she had no food and knew not how to see this. So she's a dint. She's still trapped in the spell. She can't remember.

She can't think properly. And then we have this. There Turinbar found her and I thought, oh no. And that was my first note of, I think I know where this is going.

And it was a bad time. Oh my gosh. Yeah. And he cast his cloak about her and he brought her back to the place with all these wild men, right? Yeah, with the woodsmen. The woodsmen of the woods.

And so now they're living like this little village, I guess. Sorry, I'm just checking here. Oh, okay.

Yeah. So ere the autumn came the still a brandor that's a leader of the woodsmen. She was healed of her sickness and she could speak, but nothing did she remember at the time before she was found by Turinbar. And then it says this and brandor loved her, but all her heart was given to Turinbar.

And it's like, no. I also thought it was really interesting here where not only were the words that Laran said to Turinbar at the time, like an indictment of his past deeds, but there are also a curse and a prophecy on him, right? Because again, he has once before been the thief of love and he is once again. The thief of love. I really, that was, that was wild.

All right. So now it's so good and so terrible at the same time. And how many times has this happened? I'm trying to remember. Is it Oedipus who, right? Isn't the Greek version of this Oedipus who marries his mother? Oh, yeah, there is. You know, I was, I was trying to think about like Shakespeare has this Greek tragedies have this where you don't know the identity.

You don't know the identity of who you're with. Yeah. Who is it in Shakespeare? Yeah, it's Oedipus. So Oedipus marries his mother, your Tasta because of, you know, complicated reasons.

Um, who is it in Shakespeare where this occurs? Let me read this. I agree. This has happened many, many times where it's like this identity. Yeah.

This hidden identity becomes a real problem. I guess I'm not caught up. Saucy siblings. Maybe it's in King Lear. Is that one of them?

I've seen King Lear with a Cordelia. I don't get that. Yeah. I mean, it's for sure Oedipus. Um, romance between. We have some other stuff like Hamlet's mother marrying the brother, but that's not as like atypical at the times, you know, it's not her brother, I should say. I feel like there was like some kind of misidentity and like people being interested in each other. I could be wrong, but it's a trope. It's a trope that we see.

I think the most famous one is the Oedipus, Oedipus Rex. Yeah, this one is just wild. So we, we start getting into that because now Turinbar says after time of peace here, Turinbar asked for, um, he named her Neniel is what he calls her.

Yeah. He asked her in marriage before that time she delayed in spite of her love. Um, and it says that brandy had this foreboding. He had this sense that something was off here and he wanted to restrain her not for her own sake, not because of his rivalry. And he revealed to her that Turinbar was Turin's son of Hurin. And though she knew not the name, a shadow fell upon her mind.

So it's like the sense, this adonizing sense of something's wrong here, but we don't know what. Yeah. Yeah.

But then three years pass Turinbar asked her in and she says, yes. Yeah. Oh no. Hurray.

And the woodsman of breath will made a great feast. It's so bad. And they actually get married, right? Oh yeah.

They actually do it. Yep. Which I'm like, oh no. Yep. Oh no.

And they're living a good life and then, you know, bad times fall upon them. Gluron is back. The orcs are back. Turinbar tapes up his sword again because he had promised her that he wouldn't fight previously. So what is happening now?

All right. And I'm like blanking out a little bit as to how this happens. But basically they realize that they need to kill Gluron and so they go out and Turinbar asks for some companions and some go with him, some do not.

Brandier, for instance, does not. And Turinbar says farewell to Ninio. And it's important to recognize she has conceived. Oh yes. So she's pregnant with their incestuous baby. So bad.

All right. So they go out and it says Turinbar set out with two companions. And it sounds like they're off to go to Gluron. Later, Ninio is unable to wait and she gets a great company of people to go with him to seat out Turin. Oh man.

And that's that's what's happening. So then Turinbar seems unwise. I don't know.

It is unwise. Turinbar, they find him. He's like hanging out by the river, which is good because like the sound of the river covers up the sound of them. Blocks them, creeping up on it. But still, you know, he waits up a rock falls. It kills one of his companions, but Turinbar climbs alone and he gets to the top of the cliff underneath the dragon or however it works. Yeah.

And he gets like he stabs him all the way up to the hill in his belly. Really surprised me. He was able to do this. Yes, it did.

I am surprised when anything happens successfully that actually is successful. So Gluron felt his death pain. He screams. He hurled himself across the chasm. So he dies and beat Turin. He has fires. His wings are very dramatic. Yeah.

And then, oh man, again Turinbar just being the worst or Turin. So he goes and he wants to retrieve his sword, of course. Yeah.

That makes sense. So Turinbar goes, he gets the hilt and he tried in mortuary of the dragon. He says, hail, warm of Mordoth, well met again. Die now and the darkness have thee. Thus is Turin son of Hurin avenged. And I'm like, OK, this can't be good.

This is not going to do well. So he pulls out the sword and the black blood has venom in it and it's on him. And Gluron's not quite dead yet. He's not quite dead yet. So he opens up his eyes. He didn't wait long enough. Look at him.

Yeah. So he opens up his eyes and he looks upon Turinbar. It says, with such a mouth that it's smelt him as a blow, which is so cool. And so Turinbar essentially faints. I mean, it calls it a dark swoon. Yeah. So maybe it's worse than that. It's the anger of the venom.

He lies as if dead and his sword was beneath him. So we have the screams of Gluron and like Nianor, Nynial. She's already on her way and so they made their way there. So hold on one second. There's this little scene. Yeah. Yeah.

OK. So basically complications ensue. But basically she comes upon Gluron and she sees Turinbar.

Yeah. And she thinks he's dead. She calls his name.

She can't get him to wake up. She sees that he's wounded on his hand from the venomous blood. And she treats it.

She puts band-aid on it. And Gluron is still for cannot dead. He's still alive. Yeah.

Wild. So Gluron stirs for the last time. Air he died and he spoke with his last breath saying, Hell Nianor, daughter of Turin, we meet again.

Air the end. I give thee joy that thou hast found thy brother at last. Oh my goodness. And now thou shalt know. Yeah.

So bad. And then he dies finally. And the veil of his mouth was taken from her and she remembered all the days of her life. Horrible. Oh man. And she remembers who she is and she remembers who Turin is.

Yep. And then Brandeer who had kind of like been with her and trying to lead her way but like couldn't manage it. And he's the witness to all this. And she says farewell. Looking at Turin she says farewell. Oh twice beloved. Awful. Horrible.

As a brother and then also as a husband. Oh bad. Yes. And then master of doom by doom master. And I really like that line because it like calls back to his, his, his, his, his new name. His hubris. Yeah. I'm the master of doom. Oh my gosh dude. And by doom master she really, oh she knows. Yeah. And then she says oh happy to be dead.

And then she throws herself into the river and dies. Yeah. Yep. Wild.

I was not seeing that come coming. Wild. Yeah. So he witnesses all of this. He knows what's going on. Brandeer does. Yeah. Brandeer.

Yep. And he goes back to his people and they're like what's happening? We can't find Ninial. What is going on? And he says Ninial is gone forever.

The dragon is dead and Turin Bar is dead and those tidings are good. I really liked this phrase. I just really liked the way he said it. It's, you cannot like, it sounds cold into the people.

Of course it sounds cold and horrible and they think he's crazy. But it's the truth. Yeah.

Yeah. It's 100% the truth. And he explains himself. He's like, you know what? Turns out that she was a daughter of Turin and he was the son of Turin and the people wept. Yeah. And then Turin is not dead.

This is the thing. Tolkien can't even just let it be here. He has to come back for that. Last little scene.

No, for that last little touch. So it says when the dragon died, his swoon left him. And so he wakes up and he's like, why am I here?

Who tended to my hand? Where is Ninial? Where is Ninial? So he goes back and he wants to talk and he asks, where is Ninial?

Why did you not bring her home? And then Brandir told him that Ninial was dead. But then this is interesting.

So then there's some talent back and forth because then the people are like, wait a minute. Maybe Brandir is crazy because, you know, he told us that you were dead. He told us that you were dead. Yeah. So maybe Ninial is not dead. Yeah.

Something's going on. So Turinbar was wrathful, of course, and believed that all Brandir said or did was done in Malice towards himself and Ninial, but grudging their love. And he spoke evil to Brandir, etc., calling him clubfoot.

I think he's crippled. Then Brandir reported all that he had heard and named Ninial Nianor, daughter of Hurin, and he cried out upon Turinbar the last words of Glauron. So of course Turinbar fell into a fury and he charged Brandir.

As he always does. Oh, actually, I script a sentence. For in those words, he heard the feet of his doom overtaking him and like, yeah, yep, it's happened, man. It has happened.

You are the last to know. And he charged Brandir with leading Ninial to her death and publishing with delight the lies of Glauron. If indeed he devised him not himself, then he cursed Brandir and slew him. So Turin does not believe it, I think. In his heart of hearts. I think he believes it. I think he's angry at it. See, I don't believe he believes it yet.

Really? Because yeah, I really don't. Because here's what's going to happen.

Where does he go? To do, to do, to do. And we're on the last couple pages, people. So we're wrapping things up. Oh my gosh, it's so bad.

Everything is bad. Okay. So he doesn't know what he's going to do. So he goes and he sits and he starts pondering what he should do. It does say that he ponders his own deeds. And I wonder what he's thinking there. Is there remorse? We don't know. So it's thinking whether he knew not whether he would do now more ill to Dothodoriath, to seek his tin, which, you know, they're dead. Yeah. Or to forsake them forever and seek death and battle.

And when he says this to seek his tin, I think that's why he thinks his mother and sister are still alive. I don't think people use yet. Oh, maybe.

I was thinking. And maybe he's thinking only of his mother, but like, I don't know that he believes yet. Because somebody comes and is able to give him some answers. So Mablon comes upon him while he's still thinking this and they start talking and Turin says, you're too late. The dragon is dead. And then he asks for news because he knows they're coming out of Doriath. And he just, and he learned that they went there.

So then Mablon was dismayed. And he tells how, how Mordemond was lost and Neonore cast into a spell of dumb forgetfulness and how she escaped them. And like in that moment, he must know, right? Because that's how he found her.

He's realizing all of these things. That's where he found her. Yes.

How he found her. Yeah. And then it is right here. It says, then at last Turin knew that Doom had overtaken him and that he had slain brandir unjustly so that the words of Glaurin were fulfilled in him and he laughed as one Fae crying, this is a bitter jest indeed.

Yeah. And then he leaves them and he outruns them and he goes, where does he go? He goes into the wilderness. He goes back. No, no, he goes back to where she threw herself into the river. Oh, yeah. He goes back to the cliff.

Yeah. And then he talks to his sword. The evil sword.

Yeah. He drew forth his sword that now alone remained him of all his possessions. And he said, Hail Gerthong. No Lord of loyalty dust thou know, save the hand that willed thee. From no blood wilt thou shriek, wilt thou therefore tape Turin Turin bar, wilt thou slay me swiftly. And it says, and it rained out in a cold voice, yeah, I will dream to thy blood gladly. Yeah.

Awesome. And then he puts a hill on the ground and he throws himself on it and tells himself. And he is dead.

Yep. And the elves finally come upon him and they realize what's going on. They find him dead.

And I really like this too with Maplan where he says, I also have been enmeshed in the doom of the children of Hurin and thus with my tidings has slain one that I loved because he knew Turin. Yeah. Right.

And I just, this again speaks to this, the nature of curses, how they spread, how they multiply, how they seem infectious, how they're, they're always ensnaring people in and pulling them in. In itself. That otherwise would not. Yeah.

And I thought this was interesting. It says the elves sang a lament for the children of Hurin and a great gray stone was set upon the mound and they carved it for both of them for Turin and for Nino. Yep. And honestly, I just think because when I was reading like children of Hurin and they go this, I was like, yeah, Turin's cursed. But then you realize it was his daughter too. Yeah.

It was his daughter too. So I have seen this children of Hurin book in the library and it's not like I can picture the cover in my mind. And every, every time I've walked past it, I'm like, I never opened it. I've never looked at the cover. I've never read the book. I had no concept of like what could be in there.

This was not what I was expecting. I think like it shows like a man with like a host of army behind him or something on the cover. I assume Turin. And I think in my mind, I thought, okay, maybe there's some kind of pilgrimage.

It's about like the descendants of this Hurin and how they go off and conquer some land and like take over and, you know, rule and have greatness and glory. I, that was always my assumption. This was the last thing I would have, have thought would have happened. I was shocked the entire time. I also think it's really interesting because when they had Hurin sit down in that chair, I thought he was going to be watching generations of his children, right?

Exactly. That's the implication that I got from the title to that it would follow generations, but it's like, nope, we cut it off right here. And I think it's so fascinating because it does, it does say she was pregnant, right? And so it's like, they both had love interests who loved them that he had the elf female maiden and she had the guy from the wilderness, Brindor. They could have had, they could have actually had descendants with. Yeah. They could have had real lives.

They could have had real posterity with those people, but the curse was so cursed that the, the only children that they sired was between the two of them and it didn't even come to full term because they realized, they realized all this pain and sorrow. Yeah. And so I don't know.

I think the preface that they talked about the lay of the children of Heron and talking about like these evil deeds of Mordoth, like some of the most evil deeds of Mordoth, that does make me think that Mordoth was like, La Ron, don't make this happen. Yeah. We got to put on a show for Heron. Yeah.

And this, this is a show. It was awful. Yeah. It's like a soap opera. It's insane.

Yeah. And I don't know what's going to happen now. And now I'm scared for the next chapter.

I'm like, what is this? We only have a few left and then we get into the appendix. Let's see what we got. We have chapter 20. How far into the appendix will go, I think.

Chapter 23, which talks about Elendil. And then that's it. That's it. Okay.

Maybe mine are not labeled correctly. Oh wait. Yeah. I have 22, 23, 24. 24, excuse me. Yeah.

That one's Elendil. And then I have two, two sections. I don't know if we'll read them. We'll have to do a little bit and see what they are. For sure.

I have one called Akalabeth and then one called of the Reans of Power in the Third Age. Yeah. And those come before the appendix.

I think this is new Mordoth. Those might be worth reading. Yeah.

I think we should definitely read those. But it's just, it's just wild. I'm scared for future chapters. This is not the turn I thought this book would take. This is a lot darker. I think what's wild to me is I thought Tolkien would spend, he never spends time on the things that I think he's going to spend time on. You know what I mean?

Like I thought it would be like, tell me about the success of like them over throwing Morgoth in this age, right? And then you look at these last few chapters and they're not that long. But yeah, actually, I think we could even do 22 through 24 and one and one go.

We probably should. They're very short. Yeah.

They're very short. And so that's the thing where I'm just like, it's fascinating to see what you're choosing. When are we going to see Mordoth falling? Yeah. That's supposed to be in the next few. Is this in here? Oh my goodness.

Chacters. He's going to spend like two sentences on it and Mordoth fell. And like it's wild to me because I'm like, but instead he's doing these little melodramas. He's going into characters deeply. He's saying, I don't even know what he's saying, but look at all this. Look at all this.

Yeah. I think he read Oedipus Rex. He refreshed on it. It was like, I've got a good one.

Let's go. He wanted to write an Oedipus and he crushed it. This is this is going to stick with me. This one is one I'll think about a lot.

I think this is wild. I did not like Turin though. Like I did not like him.

Yeah. Just to start out, like part of me also kind of wonders like, is the curse of the children of Turin, the fact that they're so caught up with being the children of Turin? Like if he wasn't so interested in his mom and his sister, and she hadn't been so interested in finding her brother, like, no, I don't think so. Could they have?

I don't think so. Cause that would be, that's a normal thing to want to save your family to help them, etc. I think the curse is that all their good intentions go awry. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Cause even when Turin has good intentions, it just doesn't work out for him. Niana, or not Niana, Nianor has good intentions.

It doesn't work out for her. Yeah. Like it's just difficult. I think that's the curse. That dragon really made it on.

That dragon really made it on. Oh my gosh. And what's fascinating to me is Morcoth sounds like didn't even get the, well let's see, because the next chapter is the ruin of Doriath.

And then the chapter after that is the fall of Gondolin. So did he, did he get goods from her? And I don't think he did. And so he sacrificed his dragon for that guy.

I don't know. I'm just, I wonder if Tolkien's trying to showcase like not just the, the battle loss of war and the sense of like, there are people dying all the time. But if he's trying to showcase like the intimate way war and pain and not having your family and having this thing can like twist with people's destinies and their minds. Yeah. It could be, I mean, if you think about it, he never met his sister. Yeah.

As her, right? He was sent away. Her mind was gone. Well, yeah, he did not know her as a child.

Yeah. He was sent away because of the hard times and the danger to him. So it's understandable even without GLauron that that could have happened. But yeah, I just read this whole chapter as like, this is the power of curses. You can outrun them. You can outsmart them. You can outfight them.

They're always going to ditch you and they're going to snare up people that you didn't even expect. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I think very seriously the next time somebody gets cursed. You're like, don't curse me. For real. This is, this is wild stuff.

This is wild. So we'll see what happens. I think we can probably do the nets when we do the nets set of chapters. We can probably do it all in one. All together. We shall see.

Potentially. So I'm excited to see what happens. But when they say things like the fall of Gondolin and then they say things like the war of Wrath, because that's the last chapter says of the voyage of Arendelle and the war of Wrath. I mean, I'm not, I'm not seeing a rosy future here. So I don't know how we're getting from where we're at to the premise where Mordoth is defeated and Sauron, I guess, is left at will. It's just, I don't see how we're getting from here to the setup of the third age. Wild.

Or the Lord of the Rings. So I'm excited. We'll see. I'm excited. So keep supporting us.

I hope we hear no more of Turban. Yeah. Yeah, we're like, please let the man rest. Oh my gosh. Yeah.

Wild stuff. All right. Next time then. Okay. Thanks guys. Bye. Bye. you you you