Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia. Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, beatalons and lafflons. We are excited to have you as a new friend on this journey with us.

Welcome to Speak Friend and Enter, a Lord of the Rings podcast. Hello, hello. Welcome back.

Howdy. OK, we're here. We finally made it. We made it through the big chapters and we're now so, so close to the end of the Simmerillion. We just have a few left. We think we're not sure. We think. We have all of these numbered chapters and then there's all these endless scenes afterwards.

I'm like, what is this? The appendix looks longer and longer the closer we get to it. That's true. I haven't actually looked at how many pages are implied to be within there. But it could be a ton. Turns out, like this is just the prelude to the appendix, right?

Oh, my gosh, that would be insane. But I'm excited. I feel like we've gotten to so much of the goodies that now, as we've said before, I feel like this is where Tolkien's been showing his his love of tragedy that we didn't know he had. And so I feel like we hit the peak of all this craziness. And this is like Chapter 22 is like the continuation of all of the fallout of kind of those peak chapters with the Simmerills. So yeah, I'm excited. OK, Chapter 22 of the Ruin of Doriath. This one surprised me, I have to say, some of the things that happened. Well, we'll get there when we get there.

I was surprised by how sad I was because like we've seen this coming. Oh, yeah. And I've made fun of Thingol for what feels like many moons now. But I was still pretty sad about it.

I was like, yeah, because we've taken for granted the fact that Doriath has been safe this whole time. Yeah. Yeah. I know we'll get there. We'll get there. But OK, well, I really like how it starts.

So the first line is baller. It's so ended the tale of Turin Turinbar. And like after what we just, you know, the chapter before this, it's like, yeah, the tragedy of children of her. And yeah. And then it falls on with this sentence.

It says, but Mordoth did not sleep nor rest from evil. And I'm like, dang, he's a busy man. Busy, busy, busy. He's hard at work.

It's always on his mind. It was very funny. That's so funny. Yeah. Yeah. And so then we get something which is kind of intriguing, right? We've had Turin kind of locked up in this terrible throne that he's going to see the fall of his children and his and his loved one. Right.

And then Mordoth's like, OK. Time to let you know. Yeah, be free. And I feel like we see this several times where it's like the curse, like after you've been taken, this curse of freedom where no one will trust you. You know, you're just you're almost worse off. You're going to go cast. Yeah.

It's it's interesting. And that's obviously how it goes for Turin, right? He leaves. Yeah. And I thought this was cool.

There's a phrase here that was nice. So it says, news came to the chieftains of the Easterlings that there was a great writing of captains and black soldiers of Aime Band. And with them came an old man as one that was held in high honor.

And so Mordoth not only says leave, but he sends like an honor dart. It sounds like. And that is just so so distressing. Like it feels so rude. It's so weird. It's like, oh, I'll send you off with high honors. And her is like, please, please. Yeah, please.

No. And and obviously this has consequences, right? So of course, Easterlings are like, oh, well, we're not going to touch him. And then it says the remnant of his own people shunned him because of his coming from Aime Band as one in lead and honor with Mordoth.

Of course, obviously, this is the intended effect. And the problem is that there's no way to say there seems to be no way to convince someone that Mordoth does this out of spite. Right. There's no way to say, yes, I, of course, there was an honor dart.

Yes. But I never gave anything up. It's not what you think. It's not what it looks like, right? There's just no way to convincingly do that. And so it's a win-win for Mordoth.

Like you can't lose. Yeah, it's sad. And in the back of Mordoth's mind, kind of like to your point, he wants him to feel like an outcast because he has, her and has information that he has not given up. And so this is Mordoth saying, yeah, maybe I go from a different angle. Yeah. Right.

Yeah. So so now that he's been spurned, what does he do? Well, so he remembers, I like this line, he remembered turd on. So I, I'm going to have to stretch back. All these names are blaring together now because of things like Turin and Hurin and who were and tour. I'm like, guys, please.

Give me, give me some names to just need to share. But if I recall, Hurin was in Gondolin at some point for some time in his youth, right? They were friends. Yeah.

Yeah. So he remembers Turin and it says he desired to come into the hidden realm of Gondolin. So he goes there and he finds that the way is closed off, it seems.

Yeah. The old path that he went through. And of course, Mordoth has sent spies to watch him and to listen to him. And so Turgon, like the eagles are watching out for Turgon. They're they're keeping track of who comes near Gondolin, it seems. And so at first Turgon, like kind of like says, well, well, we see that he's there, but like, we don't know if he's being followed by Mordoth or not. And so it says he thinks Huron has surrendered to the will of Mordoth.

My heart is shut. But then he kind of like repents and regrets this. And he says he sends the eagles to seek for Huron to bring him to Gondolin, but it was too late and they never saw him again. So it's just like, I feel like this chapter in particular is filled with a lot of moments of like ships passing in the night. Like you were so close to like a moment that could have turned things a different direction and you just failed to have it happen. So that was one of them.

And what's so interesting is so Huron's heart broken. Oh, yeah. Right. He thought this was going to be my one chance.

Yeah. This is the refuge that he trust. He can go to Turgon and say, look, I was captive.

I think he thinks that Turgeon is the only person who would be able to accept that argument. Yes, I was captive, but I never gave anything up. Yes, they gave me an honor dart, but it was despite me, etc. And I think, you know, I think that's fair. I think he would have been able to see the truth in that. But because he wasn't able to get through and he felt rejected and like nobody heard him or came to him. Yeah, he stands Huron goes and stands on a cliff area. And he looks out towards where Gondolin is. And he says in a loud voice, you know, he calls out for Turgon and he kind of kind of curses him.

It sounds like. But the main thing that happens is that Wargoth has a spy there who sees him looking in the direction. And now they have like a triangulation on where Gondolin is, because they never really knew for sure. But now they they don't know the exact location, but now they have like a general a much, a much more specific area to search. So this is the first mistake here. And they even say it this way.

It says this was the first evil that the freedom of Huron achieved. Ah, can't he do anything good? It's hard. It's hard because he's doing so much. Hard to blame him because he wasn't giving up the location.

And because of that, it cursed his kids and it cursed him. Yeah. Oh, man, it's wild. But so that's the first scene that's like Huron getting out. He tries to go to his people. He's rejected. He tries to go to Gondolin. He is rejected, even if Tergan does repent of it.

And your heart breaks a little bit because he's so in despair. Where else is there for him to go? Intel.

Yeah. Where else is there for him to go? So then he dreams of his wife, Morwen. And then he goes to the the river like that cliff river where like Lauron was killed and they had the stone that has the Turin.

And I'm going for the ornate. Is it Nia Noor? Yeah, this is where his two children died. So he goes there and he finds Morwen there.

You know, obviously she's older. And they have this like really sad conversation. This scene made me so sad.

Yeah, this was like, oh, this was really sad. So she says to him, you come at last. She said, I have waited too long. It was a dark road. I have come as I could, he answered. But you are too late, said Morwen.

They are lost. I know what he said, but you are not. And like that just. Yeah, you can get my heart. You can almost feel he's like almost the brush of hope is right there. Yeah, you know, he's like, the kids are gone, but you're not gone. Yeah, right? Like he's like, you're like, don't give up hope.

Like, yeah, we're still here. Yeah, but this is what she says. She says almost I am spent.

I shall go with the sun. She's like, I'm dying. Like I just have a little time left. This was an interesting line to me. I don't really understand.

I'm not certain of the context. She says, now a little time is left. If you know, tell me, how did she find him? And I think what she's asking here is, is how did, is it Nianor? That was her daughter. Yeah. How did her daughter find Turin?

Turin, right? And obviously, I mean, to me, that says that Morwen has no idea what went on. Yeah, she doesn't know the full.

She doesn't know the full story. All she knows is that she came in the wilderness and she found the stone that says here lies Turin, here lies Nianor. Is it Nianor or Nienna?

Am I making up these names? I think it's Nianor. Okay. Nianor, Nian is the. Thank you. I knew I was mixing them up.

Or the balla. Yeah. So, so she just finds the gravestone and she's like, what happened here? And I loved this.

Yeah. But Hurin did not answer and they sat beside the stone and did not speak to Din and I'm just like, whoa, he can't answer. How do you answer that? Because he knows like, I don't want to tell you, right? And it would be cruel to tell her, honestly. And then of course, it's terrible and sad. And it says, when the sun went down, more one side and clasped his hand and was still and Hurin knew that she had died.

Yeah. And I love this line. He does say he looked down at her in the twilight and it seemed to him that the lines of grief and cruel hardship were smoothed away. She was not conquered. Yeah. And he closed her eyes.

It is a good line. I mean, does does he feel like he has been? I think maybe he would and his children maybe. I don't know. But I think he's he's realizing like, because we talk about, OK, they talk about the gift of death a lot for humans in this world, right? Where they're like, oh, it's kind of have this thing going on where they know where they're going to go.

But humans, they don't really know what the next step is. And I wonder if it's kind of like, I don't know, like she's gone from her pain. Yeah. This world. She was not conquered by the pain of this world. She's not conquered, right? Like there's a future for her almost a different life. Honestly, it's a great gravestone and gravy.

Like it's good at the taff. You could have that on your on your grace and that'd be nice. It's beautiful.

Yeah. But the only thing so that line makes me feel a little better, even though this thing breaks my heart. Oh, it's so bad. The only other thing I can think of that makes me feel a little bit better is like maybe she was waiting for him. Yeah. Like she was holding out hope, right? Holding out hope that maybe when her maybe something would happen that they could be together and she sees him and she's like, oh my gosh, like my dreams are fulfilled.

Like there's nothing left for me to stick around for almost like I've this is the most that I could have hoped for. Yeah. And so, yeah, I don't know.

That's interesting. It's just it's very sad. It's after having had to read the children of here in chapter and going through that, like, whoa. And now you have to read about her and also having a really bad time. It's like, dang. Yeah. I feel bad for him.

So he buries her there and adds her name to the gravestone. Yeah. I think also, like this is just a general trend that this chapter made me think about a lot is it's very much when we think of valiant characters who are bold and who don't give up secret intelligence and who do all of these things for the right reasons, we think it's going to circle back for them.

Right. Like someone's going to be. They're going to get karma. They're going to have a better life. There's going to be justice. There's going to have like goodness because of who they were. And they were this upright, ethical person. Right. And Tolkien here is kind of saying like, that's not how it goes. Yeah. Right. And I think that's kind of bold to be like, you could be a good guy. You could and have all these bad things happen to you.

Morgaugh. And it doesn't necessarily mean you're going to be, you're not going to have pain. Yeah. Right. Yeah.

I don't know. So fascinating. Yeah, I agree. Um, so Hurin from there goes to Narderthrand. So this is where, um, Feligand and his house died. I mean, I, I Tolkien blamed Turin.

I'll blame him too. Um, so he goes there and he finds that, you remember the little like petty dwarf mim, he finds a petty dwarf squatting there with all the treasure. All the treasure, all the goods. They, they, they compared him to Glaurung, the dragon, just like with his gold.

Yes, it's awesome. Um, so he finds him there and obviously Hurin knows everything that has happened here and so he tells me because he knows that men was the reason that Turin got betrayed, et cetera, et cetera. It's, I still, I kind of felt bad for him. He's like, finally in my luck is turning up.

I did a new house with more treasure, any treasure. Um, and Turin wasn't that nice to him. Oh no. You know what I mean? Yeah. And so I'm just like, I don't know.

So it's bull, it's interesting to me. And this definitely comes up later, but it's interesting to me how Hurin is like feeling jaded at this point. Like I feel like after going through all of that pain, part of me would be in the part where I'm just like, you know what, just go live your happy life. I'm going to try to go live my life.

But, but that's not how it is. It says after he buries his wife, he is driven by vengeance. Yeah, exactly.

And so we see that here. Like he has no tear for this. He kills him and he goes into Narder Thrawn. And when he comes out, it says he bore with him out of all that great hoard, but one thing only. And I was like, what do you mean? What is it? I'm dying to know what is this foreshadowing?

Fortunately, two sentences later we find out. Um, so he goes from Narder Thrawn and he goes to Doriath. He goes to Teen Fingal.

Um, and when he goes there, he throws at his feet. Um, I think we have met this, but I'm not sure. He throws at him now, Glamour, the necklace of the dwarves, uh, which is, was made for Felidrind by, you know, the dwarves of Nodrad and Belagost. And it's just like an amazing piece of work, apparently.

It's gorgeous, right? And this is, I think, one of the first times we're hearing about like a piece of craftsmanship that the elves admire. And they were like, ooh, from the doors.

Yeah. And they're like, ooh, I like that. I think they have previously said things like, yeah, the dwarves were very good at this and very good at that, but we've never had like a named object.

And here is one. Um, which I feel like every time we get a named object, it's like, good. Another thing for people to fight over. Let's see what's going to happen here. So he throws it at Fingal's feet and he is furious. You know, he blames him for not keeping his children safe.

Um, blames him for everything that happened, essentially. Um, I thought it was interesting that Fingal, you know, he's had some very saucy things. I thought it was interesting. He's usually a hothead. Yeah. I thought it was very interesting that Fingal was cool about it. And it says being filled with pity, he restrained his wrath and endured here in store. I was kind of shocked by that.

Um, I mean, both of your kids and your wife are dead. Yeah. He's just had this thing with Luffy. He needs somebody to vent with. Like I feel like he's like. You know, I feel like that would suck.

Right. Like he's, he's, he's pull, he's pulling on his empathy there. Um, Melian, of course, speaks up and is like, yo, stop this, stop this nonsense right now. Um, she says, we kept your children safe. We kept your wife safe.

We stopped them from leaving when they wanted to. Um, and I like the phrase she ends with, with the voice of Mordoth, thou dost now upraise thy friends, which is sad. And that gets through to Huron. Um, and I think, yeah, that gets, that gets through to him. So yeah, uh, he basically says my fate is fulfilled and the purpose of Mordoth achieved, but I am his for all no longer. So he's trying to turn away and, and live his own life now, like it seems.

I'm curious. I feel like this is so fascinating because when he talked about, when they talked about the prison that he was in, where he would sit there and he would watch everything unfold, I wonder too, like if it wasn't just watching, if it was like Morgoth is there narrating, right? And he has this voice of like, and now let's see what happens.

And like, oh my goodness, he couldn't even do this for your son. Right. And like kind of this, this nasty little negative perception of life. Some level of that.

I agree because it says that he saw what was going on, but mixed in it were the lives of Mordoth. Yeah. So maybe it's more, maybe it's like you're at a movie theater and they're showing you very select scenes. You know, you see this scene and then Mordoth says, yes. And then they went here and they were betrayed by so and so. And then you see this disaster, right? Yeah. So he definitely wasn't seeing all truth. Whatever he saw, there were some mix of falsehood.

Yeah. To make it even more painful for him. And so I just think like, how brutal would that be? I'm kind of getting like PS up.

I can't talk post traumatic stress syndrome. Oh yeah. Right. Where it's like you're exiting this stressful situation and you're like, OK, I'm going to go, I'm going to live my new life.

Things are going to be good. But you realize, wait a second. It wasn't just about leaving the place. The place has embedded itself in me in a way. Yeah, you can never quite. And it's hard to leave that behind.

Yeah, I agree. And we don't really know what happens with Huron. It's not, it sounds like he never recovered because the implication is that he went and it says he cast himself at last into the Western sea. And so ended the mightiest of the warriors of Mordomyn.

So yeah, like his ending is sad. That's the end of it. Yeah, it's. I mean, he obviously didn't deserve it and satisfactory. Yeah.

Yeah. But it was much more realistic than, oh, yeah, he gets out of 28 years of torture. He witnesses everything that goes on with his children and he's fine. You know, he goes back to his wife. He has another set of children and it's fine. So yeah, I know. I was like, how old is he?

Maybe maybe they could have more kids and then they're like, is weird? It was long and white. And I was like, OK, maybe not. Maybe not.

But it is more realistic in a sense. But it's also like you said, it is unsatisfactory that he was punished and punished and never really got any rectum pins. And we don't really know, like you said, about what happens to men after death. So, you know, hopefully they do somewhere very nice. And there's some sort of heaven for them, but it's not clear. It's not clear.

It's not clear. So then we did on to our next plot. Plot B. This is where if the tragedy can thicken.

Yes, tragedy strikes again. So we have a named item now, Glamir. And of course, now that we have a named item, we must lust after it. So which is the beautiful necklace that that Hurin brought. Hurin was going to give ironically. But then at the end, he was like, actually, you can't take this. This is a nice guess. So it says, single sat lawn in silence, daisying upon the great treasure that lay upon his knees and attainment to his mind that it should be remade and in it should be set the Silmaril and I was like, no, no.

Stop. And it's worse for as a years past, Themedle's thought turned unceasingly to the Jula Feanor and became bound to it. And he liked not to let it rest even behind the doors of his inmost treasury.

And he was minded now to bear with him always, waiting and sleeping. So we see the impact of many years with the Silmaril. This is the most explicit we have seen it taking its toll on. Themedle, you know what blows my mind? And maybe we've talked about this before in like prior episodes, but so the Simarils are made from something beautiful.

They're made from light, right? From Valinor. It's everything good. And then the one ring that we see in Lord of the Rings is like malice, hate, everything bad. Cast into a beautiful object. Right.

Cast into a beautiful object. And so my question is, why the Simarils be having almost not maybe not quite as predictable? Well, no, it is the same with that. I think it's the same.

Almost the same effect. What does that say about humans? Yeah, whether it's, I don't know, craving something beautiful and good or or or bad.

Yeah, that we fixate. I don't know. I don't know. So we'll definitely have to go read Lord of the Rings to confirm this because the the I guess the sense that you get from the movies is that the ring has a kind of sentience to it. Right. Yeah. I don't get that sense from the Silmarils. I don't get that sense from the Simarils. However, I don't know, maybe in the book, it's not that clear. I like maybe in the book, that sentence is not played up as much.

I'm not I'm not sure. So yeah, it is interesting that, yeah, it's interesting that the Silmarils, a theme of virtue and beauty can do this. Yeah. So I'm fascinated by this. I see a correlation there where Tolkien is not just saying it's not just evil things, right, that people fixate on.

Can be the beautiful and it's not just evil things that people fixate on and can cause evil things to happen. Right. Yeah.

It's the other way around as well. Like you can you can go beyond the pale, essentially. Yeah.

So we're seeing that happen here. And so he says, you know, I want the scene set on a necklace and I want to wear this necklace. And so he did some dwarves to come in and to do this.

I think the first the first no, no. But who else was he going to go to? He knew he couldn't pick trust other elves.

Yeah, probably trust other elves. But like, you know, they're also like excellent craftsmen. And like, this is a work of their hands anyways, right?

So I think it made sense. And then they do it. They they they set the Silmaril in there. And I thought this was cool. It says, for now, the countless jewels of the Nautilus mirror reflected and cast abroad in marvelous hues, the light of the Silmaril.

That's cool. So you get this like chain, literally a chain effect of the necklace spreading light around your neck. Exactly. So then Fingal goes to put it on. And as soon as that happened, I was like, oh, I know it's about to happen.

Um, it's so bad. So then the dwarves are like, you don't have a right to this Nautilus mirror. This is a dwarven artifact. And they're like, FYI, this necklace is dwarvish.

Where'd you get it? Yeah, it's ours is basically what they say. It's my precious. And he does not take this well. And I liked his response. It goes, how do you have untruth race dare to demand ought of me, whose life I was like, oh, yeah, exactly.

Whose life be Dan and the years uncounted are the fathers of the stunted people a woe today. So yeah, it doesn't go well. And of course, he thinks probably correctly that they are really after the Silmaril. Yeah, probably correctly. But then it says that the dwarves rose up about him, laid hands on him and slew him as he stood. Because they were so enraged. Yeah, I did not see it coming. I don't know how I thought that this would happen. Yeah, this is not how I thought it would happen. I guess I thought that Doriath would be like attacked by orcs or something.

So this was earlier than I expected for themed one. I was kind of sad, actually. It felt anti climatic to me. And I think this is part of the writing. It felt like this great king who had made it over who had seen so many things, protected so many people, had a daughter. Oh, we've seen him involved in everything for a long time.

He was one of the first characters we met. Powerful. Yeah. Yeah. Like a core person.

And would you say, like, kind of brought down by a foible? Yeah. Right. A little bit like this, this little like, oh, a disagreement with craftsmen. Yeah, exactly.

Like what? Well, I mean, it's over a Silmaril and we know that those are weighty. But yeah, it's exactly that. where it's like, I did not see it coming from this direction. And maybe that's a commentary of what Tolkien is trying to say is like, look at the little things that bring you down, you know? This is like petty fight over jewelry, essentially. I mean, it's more than that, but it is interesting. Well, and I think it's so interesting too, because we talk about like seeds for Lord of the Rings and the relationship between elves and men and dwarves.

And like people already be spitting fire words at each other, right? Like that's so rude of him to, in my head, I think he's saying like, you're not a child of a Louvitar. And also you haven't even been around that long. Yeah, no, and this exact moment, I was like, is this the moment where we have this massive criticism between like dwarves and elves? Cause we had that battle where the dwarves left first, but that didn't feel like the same level. Because in that situation, like it seemed pretty understood. They had just lost their team.

No one seemed to like hate them for it. It seemed pretty well understood. And this one is different. This was you were brought in to do a theme, you got greedy, you asked, you were brought in for a job, you got greedy and you tried to take the stones and the whole Mount Glamir and the Silmaril entirely. So I think the dwarves are definitely at fault for this. However, can they really be blamed in the face of a Silmaril?

I can also see the dwarves being like, you brought us in to work on a piece of work that's ours. How did you get this originally? Honestly, like Thurin was not that great. Cause wasn't this, I guess this was from the elves. So it was given, it was made or given to Feligund.

And then Thurin brought it to Bengal. So yeah, it's hard to say that the chain of custody is like great because her and technically looted a grave. Yeah. And so I don't know, they're basically saying like, this is ours, the Simmaril. I think I would say, yeah, the necklace is yours.

Like take the Simmaril off and I'll give it back to you. But then they are offended by his words, which is kind of like, rather than just being like, hey, I understand what you're saying about the necklace. Yeah, and I think it's pretty clear that that's what it is. Like the loss of the dwarves was kindled to rage by the words of the team. So they killed him for what he said and then took the Silmaril or yeah. And then took it. Yeah, wild. Well, and then this shocked me.

They took the Simmaril. Oh yeah, I did not see that coming. For some reason, I thought only else had it. And now I'm seeing it as otherwise. So you know what the Hobbit, the Arkenstone or whatever it's called?

Is that a Simmaril? People have debated the thought process is they don't think it is. But it's just another amazing jewel. Another amazing jewel, kind of like indicative of how someone, how they would feel about something Simmaril-esque.

Cause something that I'm getting more and more curious about as we go along is by the time we hit, you know, the time of Lord of the Rings proper, what the heck is going on with the Simmarils? Like who has them? Where are they? Are they just lost? Do we know where they are?

So I'm, the appendices better tell us that because I'm very curious now. Yeah, so people do say they're like the Arkenstone could match the description of the Simmaril, but then looking down, people getting real specific. They were like, no, because Tolkien wrote in like the appendices of whatever, whatever, that the two lost Simmarils would remain lost until the end of Arda. So it sounds like- So unlikely. Technically, someone could make the argument, but it sounds like maybe he had writings that was like, that wasn't his intention. Okay, that's interesting.

So hold on. At this point, we have two Simmarils with Mordoth. One Simmaril, right?

There are three. Doesn't Mordoth have two because Baron was going to take more out of his crown? Cause I was just thinking about like his crown, how many there were. I think there's three in the crown.

Yeah. So Baron took one, there are two in Mordoth's crown still. Baron took one and that is now in Naudlemere. And so we'll just have to see where everyone ends up. So anyways, the dwarves take Naudlemere, it's the Simmaril, and they start running the heck out of there and they are pursued pretty strongly and almost all of them killed. They do, the elves who pursue them do get Naudlemere and they retake it and they give it back to Mellian. And then two dwarves made it to a different city. And here they say to the dwarves there that dwarves were slain in Doriath by the command of Thingol who would cheat them of their reward.

So obviously I was just like, maybe they can somehow worm their way into that perspective. Making things up a little bit. It's like a lot of it. It's kind of like the kin slaying when they're like, oh no, we're at war. And they're like, oh no. And so people jump in to help.

But it's like, well, you weren't really honest about why you're at war. Why? How did this start?

We should ask questions. How did this happen? So I feel like this is the beginning of that great dwarven elven rift, right?

How can it not be? You've assassinated a team. Like essentially. So that was interesting. So then the dwarves... This next part shocked me. Which part?

When the dwarves march out? Sorry. Sorry, we'll keep going. But this next part with Melian. As the dwarves go back.

Yeah. So the dwarves march out and they are going to... They're going to Doriath.

They feel like they've been greatly wronged, obviously, based off of these messengers. And this was interesting. Yeah, okay. Maybe this is what you're talking about. Where it says, with the death of Thingul, a change came upon Melian.

Thus it came to pass that her power was withdrawn. So we have had this time, this whole time. We've had Doriath be this amazing protected kingdom. courtesy of Melian. And she was hella powerful. So powerful. It was talking about Morgoth trying to invade her mind.

It was talking about all these things happening. And here we have her now in grief. She is either stricken or un... I interpreted as unwilling. Unmotivated. Yeah, certainly unmotivated.

Potentially even unwilling to protect the people there anymore. I was kind of like, girl, what? Yeah. Like you are basically immortal. And like, yeah, your boo died.

Honestly, he was a bit of a jerk. But I'm like, be sad. But I feel like stand up to your mantle. You know what I mean?

Like, this is your responsibility. And she just, she wilted. She wilted like a flower. Well.

But she's very sad. Yeah, yeah, it's not really, yeah. It's not really clear to me if it was intentional or not. But whatever the case is, the timing was poor because this means the dwarves did in.

And I thought this was interesting. They have like warriors and guardians and such. And they were like unable to function. So they were not able to stop the dwarves.

Like all the the defensive Doriath without Mellon was unable to stop the dwarves. And I thought that was really intriguing. Like, is it because it could be a combination of a couple things, right? Obviously, they haven't had to fight as much as other elves. And why would they have? Only fighting they would have to do would be outside of Doriath, right? Because nobody's getting inside Doriath.

You always have a safe fallback zone. So that was interesting. Maybe they are just less practiced. But then the other side effect of it was that the fact that their teen is dead and the circumstances of it are a little bit stethia potentially. Like they're very demoralized.

They're very despairing. And so in the end, the dwarves made it to Doriath. They sack the halls of Fiendle. They tape Naudlemire and the Simranil, which was again, wild.

Wild is this back and forth, back and forth. But OK, I feel like I need to be a little bit more generous for Mellion. They do have like a little paragraph. And I don't know, you do get the sense like it was saying like Mellion was a Valar and she was she was a Maya of great power and wisdom. But for the love of, you know, Elwe Singolo, which I think is that's Dingle's name. Yeah.

Dingle, yeah. She took upon herself a form of the elder children of a Louvitar. And so you get the sense of she's made a sacrifice over her life.

She's looking over her life and she's like, I did this because of love. Yeah. Right. Like my whole journey of what I have done and that I came here for was because I fell in love and that is that's one.

Yeah. And that's devastating because you are an immortal being. It's not like, you know, in 10 years, you're going to die. I think to like, you know, you see little old ladies or, you know, old couples and when one of them dies, you just pray that the other one is going to follow next. You like, they're so sad and lonely, but she doesn't have that option. Right. She'll always have that the burden of that grief, I think.

Yeah. And it sounds like the grief of Luthien hit her pretty hard as well. And the terms that her daughter was going to die.

Yeah. And so I do think it's really another heavy hitter, they kind of wrap up her chapter by saying she left. She physically left Middle Earth. She went to she went back to the garden. Sorry.

Valinor and there was the garden of. Well, she's in Oregon. Yeah. So she goes back to the Valor.

And this is the first we've seen of anybody leaving Middle Earth and getting back to Valinor. Yeah. Which obviously it's easier for her being Maya. Yeah. But I think it's interesting because she basically said like it was just wild to me how quick it was like, OK, my reasons for being here aren't there anymore. She sends for Baron and Luthien because she knows they're there. They're the future, right?

They're the future of their kingdom. She says, hey, you need to come and then she leaves. Yeah. I don't even know if she says you need to come. She sends a messenger that's possible.

She just sent somebody to tell them what had happened. That's true, too. Yeah.

In my head, I was thinking kind of like come down this burden of like of responsibility has fallen on you. Yeah, it's possible. Right. Like you are the next generation. Yeah. But actually, I was this next little bit is Baron and Luthien, which I was surprised by.

I was like, OK, I thought we had said goodbye, but we haven't quite. So at this point, Baron and Luthien are still alive. They have a son named Dior and Dior has two sons and a daughter. So that is a current state. Yeah, that's kind of interesting. I wasn't expecting that. So that's the current state of things.

She does send to she sends at least a messenger to say, hey, this is what's going on. And what happens is that Baron goes out and he brings his son and a bunch of elves with him and they go to avenge the angle to kill these dwarves. Yeah. And it sounds like they do it in a very guerrilla manner. They're they're they're hidden.

It says the dwarves were sailed by unseen enemies and it sounds very barren coded. Yeah. Yeah.

Very much. So they basically kill all these dwarves. And even this, I thought this was interesting. As the doors climb the lawn slopes beneath Mount Dolmed, there came forth the shepherds of the trees and they drove the doors into the shadowy woods of Arred Linden. Whencidus said came never one to climb the high passes that led to their homes. So that was interesting. Do you think like Mellion sent the ants and said, hey, wreck those dwarves?

Or do you think that was just a case of territorial ants? Like, what are you guys doing here? We're going to drive you over here. Because screw you, you terriactresses. I don't know. It was it was interesting that we had like surprise ants and they're not described. We don't know what the shepherds of the trees are.

I think this is the first time that they're mentioned and they're described not at all, which was interesting. I almost get the sense. I almost get the sense they're fleeing, right? Like they're fleeing into the forest. Oh, for sure they're fleeing, but it's like the ants are chasing them. Like why do I guess I was surprised that the ants stepped in. Yeah, I think I think it might be kind of like that protection component of like, oh, nobody, nobody comes here.

Like where this is our territory. What are you doing here? Kind of by surprise. You stepped into a dangerous territory.

We can talk and we can walk. That would be wild. That would be awful. So in the end, Baron gets the Naudlemire and he returns with the Simmerall. Yeah, with the Simmerall. And this is interesting for a little while.

Luthien just wears it around. Yeah. And I thought that was that was wild to me.

Yeah. And it says she was a vision of the greatest beauty and glory that had ever been outside the realm of Valinor. I mean, she's half Maya and she's got a freaking Simmerall. So I could imagine.

It all made sense. But like I was surprised that Baron took it back. And maybe it's a lack of imagination on my part.

I was like, what else could he do? But I just I look at that Simmerall I think it's cursed. It will always be cursed. Yeah, don't take it. Get rid of it. Throw it somewhere. I was surprised that he took it back, that he let Luthien wear it or maybe she wanted it.

I don't know. But like just like have it out in the open like that just seemed like a bad idea. I wonder if they thought of giving it back to the Noldor or not, because I kind of agree with you. I feel like I actually feel like Baron and Luthien seem somewhat spared from like this influence of it, even though their whole journey was trying to acquire one.

I do think that if there was anyone who would have it and be safe enough around it, it would be them. But at the same time, like you're wearing it openly where other people can see it and then they did something. You know, they get jealous or envious and I don't know. Yeah, this kind of feeds. Yeah, because I think we'll see this with their kids shortly. But like Baron and Luthien, it's like they I think their reason for wanting a Simmerall is because it was it was demanded of them to be together. And their main thing was they were in love, right? And so the Simmerall in itself wasn't the valuable thing in their previous story. And so, yeah, to your point, it's interesting that they're like holding on to it now because it's like. And maybe it's just to keep it out of other people's hands. I could definitely see that working.

But if I don't know if it was me, I'd be like, I'm going to get rid of this as soon as possible. Yeah. So then their son, who is apparently the heir of Thingol, which I guess made sense. Yeah, actually. Thingol's heir. Yeah. So he goes to Doriaf to rebuild it. I thought that was cool.

And he brings his three children and he brings his three children. Yeah. And so then it kind of steps.

We have a little bit of a time strip here. And at some point, a messenger comes and brings to Dior this Nabilamir with the Simmerall still in it. And it says Dior looking upon it knew it for a sign that Baron and Luthien had died indeed and gone where do the race of men to a fate beyond the world. So this is how he learns of his parents dying demise. Yeah. And it says that he then tapes the Simmerall and he wears it around his net. And that that is that's just bad news. It's bad news. So Luthien got away with wearing it.

Dior cannot get away with wearing it. I almost wonder because where did they say they lived? Because they're talking about where Baron and Luthien dwelt. They dwelt in this green aisle with a bunch of streams. I'm picturing them almost being like hermits. Maybe like out there in this beautiful green place together with their family.

Wearing this. But now that he's a king and people back in town where people know where he has power and prominence, like, well, I wonder if that has something to do with it. I think it could be that.

But I definitely think there's something to be said about it having been Luthien who wore it before and not Baron. Yeah. The fact that.

Right. Like Baron didn't wear it. Luthien wore it.

And I think that's important because of what it says later. It says, you know, when Dior puts it on, it says a similar Lafaynor burns it in the woods of Doriath and the oath of the sons of Faeanor was weighed again from sleep. For while Luthien wore the necklace of the doors, no elf would dare assail her. But now it's not Luthien.

It's Dior. And I think it's because the elves in general at Zemtien, maybe a very small few, just love Luthien too much. They put. I think they respect her.

They couldn't do anything to her. But now it's just Dior. Right. They're like, oh, you. Oh, you.

Dusty sun. Exactly. Exactly. Redheaded stepchild. Um, so.

And it's just a total disaster. So we did our worst least favorite elves coming in. We did, um, Curfinn and Celadorm. Yeah, the sleazy brothers, the slimy brothers. So bad. So they come in and they gather up a bunch of people and they assault Doriath.

Um, and it says that they killed Dior and nimble off his wife and leave his sons to starve in the forest. Awesome. Um, and can you get this? Get this.

Okay. Of this, Majros repented and sought for them long in the woods of Doria, but his search was unavailing. So we never find out if those sons died. Most likely they did, but I was liking Majros and here he is doing awful things. Um, wasn't Majros one we were liking? I feel like he was.

Which one? He was. He was the one who started taking over for the sons of Feanor at one point and kind of held the noldor together. I was liking him and now I kind of regret that. Cause you feel like he was kind of behind this assault as well.

I think it was probably Celadorm and Curfinn, but like the fact that he was on board, um, he's like aware of it at least. Yeah, exactly. And maybe he feels all I must do it because of my oath and if I don't fulfill my oath, we'll all die because of the curse. Um, so I don't know what the reason would be, but that just felt unnecessary. Um, and then, yeah. So, so they're basically all killed. It says, thus Doria was destroyed and never rose again, but the sons of Feanor gained not what they sought.

And I love this because the daughter estates and she tapes a somerille with her. So at every turn it's like loony tunes, villains. These guys are incompetent to the extreme and they fell to get the somerille. Come on.

Can you imagine their disappointment? Like we did it. We assaulted Doria. We did it. We killed everyone that they think and they're like hunting around the bodies. Like where's the theme?

They would have been so distraught. Okay. I have some interesting thoughts towards this end because we realized that Elwig is the only one who gets away. Right. Yeah. Elwing. From this Elwing, from this descendant of Baron and Luthien. So in our next chapter, chapter 23, tune in, we talk a little bit about a rendil, a rendil. Yeah. And Elwig is the one that he marries.

And that's like the line of King, Numenorean Kings and elves that Elrond and Aragorn are descended from. That's right. Yes. And so this is like.

And a really. Arundel is the son of Tuor. Am I making that up? Yes.

The son of Tuor in chapter 23. So we're getting. Yeah. We're getting closer to Numenor. Yeah. Yeah.

Like getting little snippets and like history of people that we know and love. Soon. We're getting closer.

Soon. I was a little bit suspicious because it says at the end here that Elwing estates and she takes the Silmaril and they came to the mouth of the river Syrian by the sea. And I said by the sea, that's interesting because I had some connection in my mind between Numenor and the sea. Yeah. So I felt like we're getting closer. That's when I was like, I feel like we're getting closer and closer to Numenor. And then obviously Numenor leads to Aragorn. Eventually. All roads.

The very long chain of events. Yes. That's amazing. Yeah.

For chapter 23, I mean, it's kind of the downer. We did the fall of Doriath. We did Baron Eluthion dying for real this time.

We did like their sun slaughtered needlessly. It's it's not great. Yeah.

It is. And I was it is its own its own special event. And I was surprisingly sad by Doriath. I'm like, I made fun of Thingol for so long and it made fun of Melian for so long.

And now the infamous duo is broken up. And we no longer have Melian with her little wise. How do you feel about Melian now that you've seen her full art? She drew on me a lot.

Like I was not into what she was doing with her witchery and sorcerer craft. But now I know it was fine. Now, you know, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And she was doing a lot of good. No, she was doing great when she when she headed out.

Yeah. OK. And it is interesting to see that this is yet another collapse. I mean, we've had the fall of Narderthron. That's a whole people of the elves.

We now have the fall of Doriath, which is another whole people of the elves. And even worse, this is a a a protected land, right? He never got in there before. And now he will, of course, be able to get in there. And he didn't even need to go in himself.

He just sent in some freaking dwarfs, essentially. And honestly, could you argue that letting that similar go is part of the thing that made Morgoth successful? So they talked about that in chapter 23.

We'll get to that. There's a very funny line. But yeah, like this is just yet another fall. And the next chapter here is the fall of Dondolin. So we're just seeing like Dom knows all of these little city states falling and it's not great. It's not good because I look at this and like, OK, well, who's left?

Who else is there? Yeah. Right. Well, we have the dwarves who are kind of like hiding in their own little places of the world. The dwarves are going to be distracted by those.

They're similar woes. They've been fully brought in on it, I think they've shed blood over one. Well, and the battle we had already talked about in a previous chapter that initial battle with Morgoth with everybody, the dwarves, the elves, men, they kind of said like the dwarves after that were kind of more evasive. They were kind of like, let's not go out there and just battle on both sides.

Kind of took a gamble going there and then regretted it. And that has like an impact on on to see what all like international relations were like their side. Yeah. Right.

So I don't know. We'll have to do chapter twenty three because we did yet another tragedy. Yay.

Yes. I love downer endings. Well, Tolkien surprising us. He's bringing us to the whole scope of a motion. Surprising me.

I don't know what's going on here. And again, maybe there's time in the maybe there's time in the impendence for him to recover and give us a good old. Yeah. There we go. Give us some reprieve.

Happy end. Yes. All right. But we'll get to that. Sounds good. Excellent. Well, thank you so much for joining today. We appreciate it, everybody.

Yeah. Join us for chapter twenty three. It's just the next episode. See you. Bye. You You You