Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia. Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, beatalons and lafflons. We are excited to have you as a new friend on this journey with us. Welcome to Speak Friend and Enter, a Lord of the Rings podcast. Hello, hello, hello. Welcome back.

Joining you today on a random Wednesday, Lydia just woke up from a nap. Oh, yeah, it was powerful. Morpheus really took me. So we're going to see if we can give you a nice little breakdown of what I cannot believe we actually made it to our official last chapter, not including the appendices, our last chapter of the Cimmerillion. Yes, I think it's very silly that he called this the last chapter because I got to the end. I was like, yo, I feel like this story is not resolved.

Like I have so many questions. Yeah, technically, the Cimmerils are resolved. So I'll give him that. That's true.

But like that's the only qualifier that like allows him to talk the end of the Cimmerillion because everything else of like there is so much to do here. We haven't done this. We haven't done that. We haven't even seen Sauron. And then he immediately launches into a massive appendage. So three is three times the size of that chapter. And I thought it was hilarious. It's insane.

But you're right. I wonder if he was like, OK, I just have to wrap up the story of the Cimmerils. And that kind of has to be it.

Yeah, has to be it. Unfortunately, he opened up all these other cans of worms. And I'm like, you better be solving this. Oh, my goodness. You know, I really liked this chapter.

I thought he did a good job, except we're like personally towards the end with how quick things wrapped up. We can talk about it more as we get there. But like I love the story of so this chapter is called of the voyage of Arundel and the War of Wrath. Basically, I love the of the voyage of Arundel part, the War of Wrath part. I felt sorely lacking.

Oh, yeah. We never did to read about the stuff we want to read. We always have to read whatever Tolton wants us to read about. Honestly, yeah, I was telling Lydia. I was like, I feel like I'm always the stuff that I think he's going to write about. Or like the stories I think he's going to tell are very different from the stories and the things he writes that he actually writes about. Yeah. And there's so much left to imagination. You got like two sentences on the War of Wrath. It was wild.

It was wild. But let's start from Arundel. Exactly. OK, by the way, I think props to us. I feel like we're getting closer to pronouncing things correctly. OK, also, I was just about to say.

I was just thinking about Owl-A the other day. I was like, we went through 15 different ways to pronounce his name. So, oh, my gosh, the pronunciation is tough. They're like some of the.

Yeah, I don't know. And it's not like I'm looking things up. I'm just feeling more confident in my choices. I know, I think it's just like repetition, maybe, where we're starting to feel more confident in our repetition. And I'm sure we've still been confidently saying something wrong, but it's fine. I feel great about it. Well, I was it's so funny because I was about to say, is it Irind?

Is it a rendil or Irindel? Anyways, it's fine. We'll leave it as is. You know the man who knows the legend. OK, so this chapter is starting off with a rendil. And in the previous chapter of like the fall of Gondolin, we kind of saw his backstory, which was kind of cool. So he's half elf, half man, and his father has taught him a love for the sea. And more than that, he's kind of been like under the wing of Olmo. It hasn't exactly.

Exactly. He has a big heritage here. And then he marries one of the most lovely maidens that we've we've met. And she is also half human, half elf, which is kind of cool.

Yeah. So El we need the daughter of Beren and Luthien. Who's the son of the daughter of Dior, who's the son. Yes, thank you.

Really incredible lineage on both sides. Yeah. Yeah. So we're getting those lines. Yeah. This is a fine.

This is a fine. Yeah, lineage, I guess. So we know that backstory about him. And basically he's living by the sea. It's so sad because like Gondolin has fallen, right? And so they're just you kind of get the sense of like these refugees that are kind of like living by the ocean.

There's not that many of them. But he feels this call towards the ocean. And he has this dream because we never really hear what happened to his father and mother. They set off in a ship and never came back. And so he thinks maybe they made it to Valinor.

Maybe there's a chance that I could go and I could kind of commiserate and speak to the Valar. Yeah, it was tour. So it was a tour who was his father and yeah. And he set off. Yeah.

And they had never really been seen again. It's so interesting how many rounds. Yeah. And it's so interesting how many rounds we have of people who set off sailing.

And you don't know. Tolkien doesn't even answer what happened to them, right? Makes me think maybe they did not make it because I feel like he would have mentioned it if they had.

But yeah, yeah. I'm thinking they're dead. But we haven't seen. And so we haven't seen the bodies. We don't know for sure. We don't need it.

We need not like there's this chance of maybe I could go into the West. And I think he's also kind of having like this dream of like. Yes. Somebody has to go to the Valar. Things are irreparable here.

They're getting worse and worse and worse. And the only thing that can save us is the Valar. And he has this faith and he's willing to stake. And that's what I mean.

Going out there and trying for himself. Really is sweet about Arendelle is you've had people who've had dreams of getting back to Valinor or sailing the ocean before. But he has like they're both kind of from these fallen lineages of men and elves that have been destroyed, right? Their homes are gone.

They're hanging out by the sea. Both his wife and him have that in common. And he's basically like, I think maybe we need help, right? Like I see my people, including his family and his wife's family hurting. Like Morgoth destroyed Gondolin. We have these other elves of the Noldor that basically you get the sense are just so caught up in their greed and their hate that they're destroying their own people.

And he's like, we need saving. Yeah, we need basically this can't be solved by mortal means. Yeah. Yeah. So actually, I think it's cool because we see one of our return here. I love him. Seared on the ship right. It's very and they are best buds.

It was really cute. They're out there making boats together. And it says Arundel having learned from Seared on makes a boat with the aid of Seared on I guess.

So credit where it's due. He builds this boat. Vindalot. It was like a floating flower.

For a boat. So cute. Yeah. So that's honestly where kind of his journey begins is he's like, OK, I've had this dream about sailing the ocean. And I also think we need help.

Trying to find a way to go on this boat. And yeah. So he's on this boat constantly. And of course, naturally, as he seems to happen. He has left as good.

It's a sense of failure. Arundel has left Elwig. Elwing behind. She's at home and she is the inheritor of she's at home and Simmerill. So kind of a precarious position.

I'm surprised they just have her chilling by the ocean. It's precarious. Yeah. Yeah, it is precarious.

And I also think that Arundel should have known better that there should have been some kind of precaution. But I don't know. I mean, it says here that for maedros, like they learned that Elwing has a Simmerill and for a time he stayed his hand. But then it says, but in time, the knowledge of their oath unfulfilled returned to torment him and his brothers. Well, and it's interesting.

They're going to do what they're going to do. Because I remember you said last time you were like, oh, maedros, I thought he was going to be mom. And then he kind of like you get the sense like unwillingly, but still goes along with stuff.

And the rankings for me. And he kind of sense like he felt badly about his previous actions. But at the end of the day, he's like, man, I still am part of this family with an oath. Yeah. I mean, you did that sense earlier or on.

But now he's like, I mean, maedros is the one edging them on, it seems. Yeah. And so they, you know, they demand the Simmerill and then Elwing. Her parents got it.

It's like, if you should go get one from why you bother me, go get one from Morgan. Yeah. Yeah.

Right. Her father was slain for it, et cetera. Like these are legitimate arguments, but then it says this.

And so she makes these arguments. And then it says, so there came to pass the last and truest of slain's of Elf by Elf. And I'm like, oh, as soon as I read that, I knew nothing good was going to happen. That whole refugee town area.

And it's just awful from Gondolin and other places are pretty much gone. But this is what surprised me. So Elwig, I think she, she went and she threw herself in Elwing. I keep calling it a wig. Oh my gosh. Elwing. Yeah.

She throws herself off into the ocean. I know. I was like, I got this.

She throws herself into the ocean. And then this one really surprised me because we don't see the ball are doing that much. Almost, almost steps up.

And he's like, you know what? Not today, girl. Not today. And he turns her into a bird.

Yeah, not today. So I actually really like this part because Elwing throws herself into the into the sea. And I'm like always on Silmaril watch. I'm like, OK, where's the Silmaril now? Is it lost yet? Because I feel like this whole time, maybe it's just recently, but like this whole time I've been thinking like the Silmarils are going to be lost in the end.

No one gets them, right? That's kind of feels like that should be the natural poetry of it. And so when this happened, I was like, oh, well, she died.

That's sad. But the Silmaril is lost. We finally took one out of the runnings and then almost saves her.

Oh, surprise. Because immediately immediately after she cast herself in the sea, I thought, oh, it's lost. It was not sent to us. But it was not for her up out of the waves. And yet turned her into a bird and had basically it's kind of like you get the impression she wore it on a necklace and it kind of stayed on her as a necklace. Almost as a bird version of her flew over the water because she was it does say she was sitting at home kind of like eagerly awaiting Arendelle's return. And previously it said Arendelle had been searching a long time was when this kind of massacre happened was on his way back. Yeah. Mm hmm. Yeah, he had kind of had a foreboding.

He felt something was wrong and he was heading back and toe. Yeah. Yeah. Something else that happens during this slaughter that was interesting was that Aaron, but I think I think the reason why maybe because they were children. Yeah, I don't know. Maybe they were like, it doesn't say how old they are. It doesn't see how they are, does it?

But then also I thought it was applied young, but I don't know. I guess if they thought that she had thrown herself off into the ocean, maybe there was not high expectations that she had survived. I don't know.

But part of me is like, do they feel like there's some kind of leverage they can use? Sure. I don't think. I think there's no, I think there's no reason.

I think everyone thinks Elwing is dead at this point. Yeah. Right.

I think this is a moment of pity and you see later that it is. But I just keep on forgetting that Elrond is now a main character. I'm like, I know this guy.

But do you think about how many years we have to go from here to the actual events of Lord of the Rings? You're like, whoa, I don't know. We talked about this.

I feel like Elwing, especially the Lord of the Rings. It's just interesting. They feel almost like above, um, above criticizing, um, and that they all get along and they all have this like, I don't know, even headedness and internal. Yeah. Beauty and power and like Elrond, let's assume he was young, right?

Like some of his earliest memories as a being that lives thousands of years long are of this and the Noldar capturing him and killing his, his family, extended family and friends and like that would be little. Yeah. And it's complicated. Cause there's a paragraph afterwards that says Magdalor took pity upon Elros and Elrond and he cherished them and love grew after between them as little might be thought. It's just interesting. Yeah. It's like a Stockholm syndrome. It's not really a political hostage in this case, but like, yeah, this is the plot of a fantasy book with Elrond as the main character.

Elwing has flown off very fitting for her name. Um, to find a rendel and yes, it's his wife and he's like, what? And finds him and he's like, Oh no, a beautiful bird. I'll let it sleep on my bed. And when he wakes up in the morning, it's Elwing. Amazing.

She does have bad news. Love that for him. What a good day.

Yeah. Basically I was going to have bad news. And so with that bad news, they decide, you know, we really do need to go to the Valor than when I left. This is our last hope, basically. Yeah. Yeah. And I like this.

They talked about how Elrond Elrond stands at the prow with the Sumerrill on his brow and the light grew greater as they drew into the West. And maybe think what is it? Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, Marco Polo. It's a, what's that game? Getting hotter, hotter. What is the name of that game? I hotter told something like that. What are those types of games?

And I like that a lot because then there's some poetic stuff about exactly. That's what they say. How they're able to make it through all the barriers that have previously kept other people away. And obviously it's because they have that Sumerrill.

So they came to the Enchanted Isles and escaped their Enchanted Isles. And that's what it was saying. Because it already was about to turn into a hole because he was caught in shadows and he couldn't sail past some of these barriers, right?

Like he was struggling. And so then with the Sumerrill, they turn around, they try again and it's different. I think so. Yeah. They do. Yeah. And then. So they, they made it to Valor, which is really interesting. There's a line here that's just like. So just a rendel basically, they made it.

And I cannot, could you imagine it would be like the biggest shot of an awe just sitting in the harbor and me looking at this beautiful, like surreal landscape in front of you and be looking around at your fellow boatmates and being like, Oh, and they talked about this. They said that there were a few. You saw the other end.

They were like out there sipping your tea and what a sales. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yes.

Yes. And, and the reason they were. Well, so there are only a few elves because everyone is having a festival. So this was a cool scene.

When Arendelle first is so quiet. Yes. I don't have the line marked. Arendelle first did there and everything is abandoned because everyone's off partying and he has no concept of like the idea. I don't know. It's just he's come from a land filled with terror and evil. Kind of like that. Oh, something horrible has happened here too. Morgoth snagging during the Tocas' wedding. So that was funny to me too, which is kind of funny, which is like, they're off doing something else. The Valor even are like off doing something else. So they are not really paying attention. And he just kind of shows like this, this outlier of a possibility, this thing that they didn't think that could happen anymore.

And he just shows up and he's walking around and he's like, where is everybody? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

But eventually they did to him and he's brought before the Valor, which I thought was cool. Um, so. Right here, I liked this phrase. He asked for, on the errand of the two Tindreds, that's what it's called, pardon, he asked for the Noldor and pity for their great sorrows and mercy upon men and elves and sutter in their need. It was just, I don't know. I guess he is like half-help or whatever, but it was just interesting to see him plead for the Noldor knowing what just happened.

That is an act of real forgiveness. And he is biologically man. And that's probably why he was so ideal. There's only like three of them in all of history at this point.

So I guess his kids, but like his wife, him and then maybe a few others, they're like, yeah, they're the best. There's not very many. Yeah. Yeah. But knowing what happened with the Noldor just did to him. Like I, as far as I can tell, he doesn't know that they didn't kill Elviros and Elrond, right? I'm assuming he wouldn't know.

That would be very difficult. Um, I also like this where his, it says his prayers granted. Arendelle departs and then it's like, okay, it's like a mafia. The Tama slides to the left and we see Mando's and Umo chatting. And Mando says, shall we let him live? Well, because he's part Noldor, isn't he? And so, it's so dainstair.

Yeah. So, but because of the part of him that's man, because what Mando says is shall mortal man step living upon the Undying Lands and yet live. But almost as like, this was his purpose in this world. This was what he was meant to do. And then he talks about exactly what you said before about, you know, he was born of two and also of men.

So how can we say he doesn't have a right to be here, et cetera? Yeah. And then Mando's, well, Mando's just has a very sassy reply to that too. This was a lot of territory for Mando's. Mando's answered equally the Noldor who went willfully into Echosal may not return hither. And I was just like, whoa, they're going to kill Arundel because everything Mando said was like, yeah, he's a man. He can't live and almost said, well, he's also elf. But then Mando's replies.

Yeah, there are a lot of elves that we don't let back here either. Yeah. And then this one was very interesting to me. So then Manway is giving judgment about what to do with them. And I thought this was really interesting where Mando's or Manway basically says, Arundel and Elwing and their sons shall be given leave each to choose really to which tindred their fates shall be joined and under which tindred they shall be judged. That was really cool to me because this is like obviously relevant to our winds line when she says, I choose a mortal life. I didn't realize that there was history of this. I didn't realize this was a gift specifically set up for her line, that that's not like a theme every elf can do.

I just thought I'd just do that. But it's specifically for these, I guess, half elves and these half elves alone and possibly only. Yeah. Exactly. And possibly only for if there are other half elves, maybe this doesn't apply to them. I mean, it's pretty specific.

It's the line of Arundel. He also says like in this matter, which is really interesting. I actually thought this was fascinating in this matter. He says the power of doom is given me, right? Like Mandos is like, I could destroy you. But he's basically like the peril that he ventured for love of the two kindreds shall not fall upon Arundel nor shall fall on elwing his wife.

Who earned into peril for love of him. Okay. So he's basically saying like, man, it would be very much within my right to punish you harshly. But because of basically like your charity and like asking for people who are not necessarily even, I don't know, asking for everyone's well-being and not just for your own.

Like I'm going to be merciful. And this is really interesting too. So he's basically saying you have the choice be with men or be with elves, A to A, short life and death or else. And I like this. Arundel says to Elwing, choose now for now I am weary of the world. And so Elwing chooses elves and then it says for her sake. That was really sweet. Even though his heart was like the tinder of men, you can choose.

I'll be, I'll be with you. Yeah. But honestly, he was a little bit like I'm tired, right? Yeah.

Like he wanted to die. Yeah. Because this is, but then this is the judgment that man way gives them. So they end up saying. They don't leave. Um, but I am going to say you can never go back to middleer.

Right. They can never go back and they kind of are given jobs. Elwing's job is to relax and hang out with the birds and everything. Um, Arundel's job is to take up the chariot that drives the sun. No, I think it's essentially like a haphazes story, isn't it?

Or not haphazes. Who's the guy who drives the sun? Helios.

Fayton. All right. I gotta look up. Is it Helios? Helios? Yeah.

Of course. Uh, so yeah, he's basically different. We know now it's a star because remember this is the star.

And then you say around all of it. Star that gladiator gets Frodo. This is visible. Yes. Yeah.

No, the light, the light from the light from Elendil. Wait, I don't know. I don't know. I don't know.

A rental. I don't know how she gathered light, but. Uh, we'll have to, we'll have to do a deep dive on that. I'm very intrigued by that object. I know. Uh, that's cool. I love that.

So, so those are their jobs now. And I think this is really interesting that way back over with an old door, um, they see the star and they don't really know what to think about it. They think it's probably a good sign and it is. Um, says they took it for a sign and told it, Dill Estelle, the star of high hope.

Um, and when this new star was seen at evening, Madros spoke to Magdler and said, surely that is a somerille that shines now in the West. Can you just imagine that? They're having dinner. They're talking about how to get the somerills back. They're probably even planning to dredge the sea where Elwing fell in. I think they wonder like, why did they think it was a somerille? They're just making plans and then like they looked left out of the window.

Like, what was the difference? Uh, is that a somerille? That's so interesting. Yeah.

Honestly, I guess I'm thinking of a bit of like a religious text and like religion here, but it's so interesting to me that kind of like this new hope for elves and men is like signified by this new star. Right. Really interesting. Yeah, I love that.

That's yeah, exactly. He's obviously reaching for a parallel there and I liked it a lot. That's very good. Um, I liked, um, whether it's Maddler's reaction, including us. Yeah, that's a somerille and it's great that it's over there where it's secure from all evil.

They were so chill. Yeah. That's all I could think of. I was like, including you. Uh, um, so I think I know, and then they go through like all these reactions where Mordoth is also reacting to it and he's like, eh, it's there, but it's probably not a big deal.

No one can stand up to me and I liked this because he has no cause. Very secure. Which is fair because there's lots of opportunities.

They could have come and they haven't. Um, he's feeling very secure. And this is a beautiful line. Um, for to him, especially after they had such a pity or ever strange.

So he has no concept of the world departure on the other or man. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. And so all the sins that are committed, frankly, like why should the valor ever come to rescue them? The one he's got two pages. That we get of this chapter. That's the war of rass section. Yeah. Yeah. This is where we start and that's it.

It's so bonkers. Um, so we did a little bit about how in Valor, they're gathering up an army. Um, and then they talked about how, you know, the, um, Tuleri were not going to war because of the tin slain of Feanor. Um, but what they did do is they supplied enough ships and I'm impressed with the endos. Honestly, that he or Manway, excuse me, which is fair.

Like honestly, I get that towards a Rindale and Elwing. That he was like, you can stay and I appreciate that you came and I'm not going to punish you, but also he was like, okay, cool. Valid point. We're going, right? Like I feel like there would have been a big council about it or like they would have been like, okay, what's the best strategy or like if we go, what is that seems to happen very quickly. I just, they've been so long and slow.

I know that I'm like, really? That's all it took. I guess it was a strategy.

It appears to be overwhelming force and it's kind of awesome. But also. Yeah. Yes.

Yeah, but there doesn't appear to be any debate. I mean, maybe he cut out that chapter, but they're just like, yeah, we're going now and then all of a sudden we have a massive army and tons of ships and over. The meeting of the great hosts, the great battle or the war finally, finally, they arrive. Um, yes. Yeah. So I really liked some of these phrases.

Um, do, do, do, do, do. Anyways, it's talking about the ball rods who escape, et cetera. Or some ball rods escape. A lot are destroyed.

Some, some hide. Um, and then it says the uncounted allegiance of the orcs perished like straw and a great fire. That is some good imagery.

Just like. They seem intimidating in their great numbers and in their, yeah, just like in their terrible horde. But when it really comes down to it, if you're going to be having pitching an orc against a host of elves straight from Valinor, they have no chance. And it's kind of cool, because like way back at the beginning of the summer, really we had a couple- As they like descended. They mentioned this kind of bit, like the Valinor elves were even more beautiful than the other elves were even more beautiful than these elves. And as they descended, and like when the Noldor first arrived back in Middle Earth, they were like, whoa.

So it just makes me wonder like this. Because at the beginning of what I was reading this, I was like, how did more of these Valinor elves fear off the boats? It must have been tremendous. And it's so funny, because you don't get the sense he got a lot of warning. It basically said like, okay, the ships went off with all of these soldiers. And it said, it said out of the west, the challenge of the trumpets of Anway filled the sky and Beleriand was ablaze with the glory of their arms.

So basically, I think the only warning Morgoth got was this army showed up and they rang their trumpets and he was like, oh crap, they're here. Right? Yeah. Sudden, suddenly. And he says- Finally something his spies couldn't know about. He marshaled the whole tower of the throne. Erin Nelden told him.

He was like, crap. Yeah. It does.

Yeah. And it couldn't last and it didn't last. It sounds very short, this battle. There was an interesting note here that I thought was wild.

A great part of the sons of men marched with the enemy and the elves do not forget it. I was like, okay, that makes sense. This is a later comment. I don't know where it is.

It'll come up later, but I'll just say it now. They talked about after this battle somewhere in a later chapter, they talked about the Edain as having, they basically say that- Yeah, and found the elves. All of men were under the power of Morgoth at a certain point and the Edain were some that were fleeing from Morgoth, from Morgoth and came to the elves.

And found protection there, et cetera. And I guess I just hadn't fully appreciated the fact that the Edain were not just like normal migrators, you know? The fact that they were fleeing Morgoth, that wasn't clear to me. So it's really, this is a different vision of like, all men are under this way of Morgoth or the chains, however you put it. Well, and that's what I think is so interesting.

Except for the small group. And it makes the fall of Numeror even sadder. And then the Balrogs are scattered, the Orcs perish, the mightiest dragon, Arendelle slays. And then you hear like coming out from the depths, you have people who are enslaved by Morgoth coming out. You have like men who had been fighting with Morgoth. We do get the sense that the Edain were with the Valar, but all the rest of the men that were fighting, yeah, exactly. Those men were kind of under this way of Morgoth. And then they don't know what to do with themselves, kind of get the impression they wander east.

But it's just the ending of like seeing some of the stuff that comes out after is wild. They seem to have gotten out, but yeah. And then they go in, the army goes in to find Morgoth. It says, there Morgoth stood at last at bay and yet to Unvaliant, classic coward. Anyway, so he's trying to like plea for his life and whatever. But they get him, they call her him, they take the Silmarils. Yeah, exactly. And they own way, they took them and guarded them.

So anyway, I feel like we have not seen them. She's like the Herald. Yeah, he's a Maya. That's my impression.

I don't think we've really seen him before. Okay, okay, that made sense. So now we've all of a sudden, we've defeated Morgoth. But the debate, like the drama, the Silmarils goes on. And guess who? This is just wild. The elves, Maddler and Majora.

Send a message to Ewanwe demanding that he yield the Silmarils. It's just insane to me. A Herald of the Dots, you know? Wild. But I like his answer a lot. He says, the right to the work of their father, which the sons of Fadal formerly possessed, had now perished because of their many and merciless deeds.

Yep. And then he says that Majora's and Maddler must return to Valoranort to abide the judgment of the Valar. You know what I think is interesting, just as you were saying that in Maywe, and this is the best in this chapter. But I was just looking up Ewanwe. And it does sound like, so it does sound like they, they found Soran and Ewanwe told him, oh, Soran emerged from hiding and approached Ewanwe, seeking forgiveness, but Ewanwe did not have authority to pardon him and told him he would have to return to Valoranort to receive judgment. So I kind of get the impression, I was just looking at Ewanwe and that was something that was mentioned. Okay, that's definitely not in here.

That's not to be a side story. Yeah. Yeah, it's not in this. That will probably come up in a bit later when I was like, I don't think we have the full story here.

It must be written somewhere else. But I'm like, he seems very neutral almost, right? He's like, no, you're gonna have to come back to Valoranort and like get judged, right? Like he's just, yeah, yeah, exactly. I can't give you that.

He's the prime bureaucrat. We don't have a form for that. You're gonna need to fill this out and your court data is at this point. He's like a clerk. Yes. Yeah, it's very funny. Yeah.

Oh my gosh. So then we have like this debate between Majors and Maglor where they're debating, do we go to Valor? Do we go to the Valor?

Do we get judged, et cetera? What do we do? Do we try to take the Silmarils anyways? And Maglor appears to have more sense than Majors at this point. And I liked his argument here.

Yeah. It seems to me that he wants to get free of his oath and he's trying to work the lead-a-lease to make it happen. So here it says, Maglor still held back saying if Maglor said that this one's void now because of all the stuff we've done.

Witness, is it not made void? And I'm like, yeah. And I just was, why?

I was very, I don't know, I guess I was annoyed for Majors. Like, why can't he just take the lead? And Majors says, but how shall our voices reach to Lovatar beyond the circle of the world?

That seems a very reasonable argument to me. The world, and by Lovatar we swore in our madness and called the everlasting darkness upon us if we do not keep our word, who shall release us? So he said, yeah, these guys bore witness, but we swore by Lovatar, right? Like, does a Lovatar consider this oath gone and void? Right, but then Maglor's answer is, yeah. But Maglor's answer is awesome to that.

He says, if none can release us, then the everlasting darkness shall bear a lot, but less evil shall we do in the breaking of the oath. You're like of the two. And he's going 100% right. He seems fully repentant to me. Maglor forever.

Yeah, for sure. But then he yielded, at last, the will of Majors, and I hate that. So now they're trying to figure out how to get the Semerals again. So they sneaked into the Tampa Bay onway, killed the dards, get the jewels, escape.

For whatever reason, Aionway would not let the dards kill them, so they fled. And I was really shocked here. This is the thing I was saying that I was confused by Aionway.

But now they have two Semerals, one for each of them, right? So they're feeling like, oh, it was meant to be obvious. And I think it's because Aionway, to the point of what we just read, he doesn't feel like he can meet out Jeb's justice and judgment, right?

Like, yeah. Or possibly he realizes that what they have done is futile. Like, maybe he can look at them and be like, you're a cockroach. Like, you're going to touch that Silmaril and it's going to burn you.

And you're not going to be able to, like, hold it for longer than two seconds. Like, maybe he can just tell that. I don't know. Yeah. Because the next line is they've got these.

They're feeling great about it. And then the jewel burned the hand of Majors in pain unbearable. And he perceived that it was as Aionway had said. And then I don't know where he found his chasm. But it's really sad because he was so in anguish that he spent his life doing terrible things for this thing that he can't even hold, that he cast himself into a fiery pit. And he ended his life. And the Simmaril, he bore into the bosom of the earth. With the Silmaril. I know.

And honestly, you cannot mourn him. All I was thinking about was the Simmaril watch. Yes, one is finally lost. So, yeah, which is what I was thinking would happen. And this was cool, too. And then Magdler thankfully gets a happier ending. Magdler is also burned by his Simmaril, but he just eats it into the ocean. And then he ever wanders the shores, singing of pain and regret. So he doesn't get a happy ending, but he does.

We kind of have this really beautiful, balanced ending. I don't know if that's better, actually. I think of it.

Where exactly, where one is in the heavens as the star attached to L'uniel's boat. Oh, it's clearly how he planned it all along. And one is in the waters. Yeah. Yeah, it's so poetic. I really liked that. Yeah.

And it has a rightness to it, like that level of fairy tale and myth. Of course, how could this have happened any other ways? I was thinking, my theory was that they would be lost.

I appreciate that rather than it being like, how each one went to a different moment. And they were purposely lost so the Nolder could never get it. The Nolder got them. The Nolder got them and they gave them up saying, this is too painful for us anymore.

They weren't hidden by somebody. I think that's just the perfect, perfect resolution. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And it's exactly, I had to somewhere else for a different quote, but it's a real refutation of the means justifying the ends. Yeah, so wild.

Because they don't. Wild. As we can see. So yeah, it was really good. And then after that, so this is what happens to the Someril. So we basically wrapped up that.

But now we've got a bunch of Valinor elves hanging out. And there was, they build a fleet to go back into the West. I just don't understand what happened to their original boat. Why did they have to build the fleet? They just came off a fleet.

Where's the old fleet? So I'm not really sure what happened there. Oh, yes, that makes more sense. Yes, of course.

OK, thank you. There's a really poetic description of Middle Earth. And it says, I mean, you watch the land. That is all set on Middle Earth. And I'm like, weeping and war makes a lot of sense.

I love that. Yes, it does. So then we have some of. Yeah, we've got the elves that are returning to Valinor. And it says the curse was laid to rest, which is like, good. This is a happy ending. That's what I like to hear. But some of them remained. Who we know.

Some of these are Surodon and then Teleborn of Doriath with Galadriel, his wife, who alone remained of those who led the Noldertag style. And there. Yeah. So this is possibly the Galadriel. That made that.

That original. Is that how you read that? Yeah, that's how. Yeah, that's how I read it.

This was interesting. So we've got Elvrand who has a choice. But Elvrand and Elros both have the choice of which path to choose, right? And Elvrand chooses elves. Elvros chooses to abide with men. That was a really interesting choice. I kind of get the impression. I don't really know how to read that.

Like, what makes you, I don't know, what makes you choose men? Well, he did for a period of time. But like, his dad loved him. Because he didn't grow up with men.

His dad was like taught how to sail from his father, who was like, I don't know, I think there's a little bit of like a mother's versus father's influence almost. Yeah, that's true. I also think so when we're talking about the Elves that stayed back, we're talking about the Noldor.

But there's a whole legion of like the more forest elves, some of the dark elves, all the other types of elves. Exactly. Yes. Yes.

And I don't think those guys, those are, are they talented among the Elvr or not those elves? I can never remember. We have so many different. Exactly. That's like of the specific Noldor.

Denominations of classifications for Elves. But yeah, I agree. I think it's not like Delagerelle's the only elf left in the land. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, I think so. And then the last little bit of this chapter, basically, I thought it was very good. So Mordoth is taken by the Valor and says, thrust through the door of night into the timeless void, which is cool.

And it's so tired. And then his wife picked, which is cool. His wife gets to sit in the tower and talk with birds. And he has to go work the sky. And he's like, oh, yeah, another night on watch. Yeah. Yeah. Hope he's doing OK. But I really hope Elwene's having her best life.

Anyways, so at the end here, they have this really nice phrase. So Mordoth is captured. He can't do anything. Yet the lies that melt or the mighty and a curse Mordoth bowed there the power of terror and of hate. Soared in the hearts of Elzenmen are a seed that does not die and cannot be destroyed and ever and ever.

And a perfect way to end where it's like there are dark just because this evil character has been taken off the orginal. It doesn't mean that his impact was un. Yeah. Yeah.

Changeable. Yeah. Doesn't mean there's not like a remnant.

Yeah. And they talk about like the shadow of his spirit still lean green and like there is too much to discuss. So really, all I did was like, yo, there is stuff. It was not been ended for me. It was a really good chapter. And to your point about the similar worlds being there is stuff like kind of their story is really good chapter. What a journey. What a journey of like basically thinking about the overarching like messages of this family that was so tied and attached to this beautiful thing. We talk about it like a thing of good really coming out of the tree of light that they were willing to kind of like hurt, maim, lose, lose focus on the major enemy who is Morgoth and kind of like ruin their lives in a way in a horrible way, which is just fascinating.

Yeah. But yeah, an oath or horrible way, probably both. But I think more of a curse. It was real bad. I know I think curse and also down with Feyenoar and his son. I thought was in bad, but he turned out to be uncool. So I can't say that I liked any of them.

It's a great people, which one you know, it's so funny. Yeah. Turned was cool. I think it was cool is they were talking about this.

You were probably the coolest thing. Like if we don't fulfill this oath, we've basically said that God could bring darkness upon us, right? But well, I think the implication is that they'd be God like a real Louvitar would reach down, smash them out of their skins and throw them into the same place they just chuck Morgoth like this. I feel like wild, crazy, dark, they were doing terrible. That was the impression I thought more terrible than like some of these people that were also in the family of this curse or oath. But they didn't do those terrible things. And so it makes me wonder, it's like, could they have done? Could they have pursued the cimmerals in a more clean and happy way? And by them pursuing it in the way they did, they were bringing the curse upon them or like.

Yeah, I don't know. I mean, the way I read it, I've been reading some Greek history and the Greeks are like notorious for their. Creative interpretations of treaties and laws. They're always finding loopholes.

And I really feel like if they had wanted to, they could have found a loophole. They live forever. Yeah. And they even say this. I think Maglar says he's like, could we not carry while we pursue this oath? Can we not wait?

And I'm like, yeah, why didn't you wait? Or would it be enough? Like you can just say, yeah, I'm in full pursuit of the oath.

I said my lawyer every Tuesday for tea. Like I am. I have this oath that I would want to own these cimmerals. But I like almost like I give my ownership stake to this person who I respect and appreciate. Right. Like couldn't they? Yeah.

Oh my gosh. Well, there's an even easier way. There's an easier way to have a child. Elwede has a child and marry them. And now an older has a simeral. Like there's a peaceful solution here.

It's all it's all. Yeah, contracts and marriages. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, they definitely went about it. The worst possible way, in my opinion. Have we done it wrong? You're like surprised.

Yes. But obviously they didn't feel like that until things got so dire where they're like, oh, have you done it wrong? You know, and they're like, it's not. And they only knew for sure that they had done it wrong when it burned them.

I was just going to say, like they finally had proof that they did the wrong thing. Air quotes and the appendix. Right. But anyway, this is the journey, Lydia. What do you think are some of your biggest takeaways from this past year? Reading the Somerilian.

Well, one of my takeaways as I open the table of contents for the first time recently is that a call of faith is a test, which we have. We'll talk about. There's a technical right way.

Note on pronunciation. Let's just never open that one. Oh, no.

OK. Don't look at it. If we don't know, we don't have to repent. Yeah, my takeaways are this.

Let me think about this for a second. I think I was just surprised by the content. I think I guess my impression of the Somerian prior to reading it was that, OK, this is kind of scripture. I think people say it was my impression really was this is Genesis, right? We're going to be reading some genealogy and lots and lots of genealogy, which it's not like, yeah, it's not like we shied away from that. There was definitely some of that, but there was also really, really good stuff, which in fairness, scripture also has a really, really good stuff in it, too.

So yeah, overall, very positive. I'm really enjoying having context like behind the scenes for the elves a deeper understanding of the elves. I think it's really useful. Like next time, I mean, at some point, we've got to reread like a lot of the reins, right?

So it will be interesting to read it with that context, which I've never had before. And some of these stories have been so good, like Gondolin was fantastic. I liked Baron Eiluthian. Did not care for Turin Turin Bar, but we can just skip that chapter. Like it was just it was really interesting.

I I love these characters. The beginning. What about you?

A lot. I just added so much context for me around like the gods and the creation. And then like Yvonne and the ants and being like, well, I need somebody and like more goth and like it just added like character and personality to something that I had not thought about, like the creation of the world and the baller.

They're never mentioned in the movies. And so just like all of this context made it seem more fun and real to me. But then honestly, like everything with the Simmerals and the Noldor, it really just made me I feel I feel preached to a little bit where I'm like, dang, I feel like Tolkien was just like, this was a family that in pursuit of something beautiful like for itself in the world apart. Right. And like, be careful what you do. Yeah. And we talked about that a little bit at the beginning where it felt like there was this is a strong everything is connected like a television family drama.

Like a. I can't even keep the genre now. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly.

But a little bit less soapy. Yeah. No, there there is definitely a strong message here. And I'm surprised.

I guess I'm a little bit surprised, but maybe this is just the story that Tolkien like that is deep in his heart that he wants to tell. Yeah. But it's kind of surprising that we have to put what I'm willing to do. And both are about there's this insanely desirable object and everyone wants it. And here's the drama. Exactly.

And I don't know. I think that I'd have to think a little bit more about that as a message. But it's taking it a step up in terms of like abstraction. Because you could write the exact same story, but you could just have it be like a pile of gold or, you know, power or prestige or whatever. You could have the insanely desirable object be that thing.

But he took it up one notch. And I think it helps to create having done that. It helps to create characters that are larger than life. They're in a situation that's just a little bit more extreme than what your average noble medieval character might experience or your average fantasy character might experience.

And so it takes it up a step notch, like, you know, you, you, you, the reader, you're getting into the technical object. Probably not. You know, which of my brothers would I go for it? Right. I'm telling you a long story about what you were saying about, like, that's actually he makes this, but it made to ask the same. The bad guy or the, the, the, I don't know what to just say, like the focus of the story. I'm, yeah, almost a villain in and of itself.

I am like amazed how little. Yes, the object has character and it is almost a villain in this universe. He's like the ultimate baddie. And yet thinking back on like the storyline through the similium, he does some terrible stuff, but most I would argue most of the terrible things, maybe not in terms of like, you know, creating creatures and, and war, like, obviously terrible, but a lot of the drama and the terrible stuff we follow is like elves and men and other people caught up in this time period doing terrible things to each other. And I really appreciate, I really appreciate that it's not just like all the good guys against the one bad guy.

And this is that epic story about how to bring him down. Yeah. And I think I have heard people say this, not to my face, but online. I've had, I've heard people say on the lines of, oh, Toltan, he's very black and white. And I don't find that to be the case, obviously in the Silmarillion. And I am curious to reread Lord of the Rings proper and find out if I think the same.

Because you might say like the Fellowship was just a group of guys fighting this one. Bad guy. So perfect.

He's like the standard. And that's a good dark message. And we'll have an episode on that.

But yeah. Well, Eragorn is perfect. He's beautiful.

It's a perfect man. But the counterpoint is Faramir, who has, I don't, I can't quote it. He has a very interesting line about war and yeah. There are counterpoints.

Faramir is incredible, but also he's so good. Maybe even Denys or honestly, but like there are counterpoints. And we'll, oh my gosh, Don't even talk to me about fate. And he's so awesome. I saw some funny posts the other day. I was like, every year I get older, I resonate more with fate. And I'm like, yes.

But yeah, like I don't find these to be black and white at all. I think that what Tolkien likes to do is he likes to ramp up the story. So we have the most evil dark lord ever.

And the most goodest hobbit ever. Yeah. We have these angles, but that just broadens the experience.

It's the peak of each one. Yeah. Exactly. There's still a lot going on in between. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

I know. As we see in the next chapter. So join us for the next episode, which you're going to record right after this one.

But it's really just wild guys. I can't believe we made it here. Thank you for joining us. Yes. And we will chat with you soon about a call of it. Yep. Congrats to us.