Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia.

Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, read-alongs, and laugh-alongs.

We are excited to have you as a new friend on this journey with us. Welcome to Speak Friend and Enter a Lord of the Rings podcast. Hello, hello. Hey there. Welcome to our Somerillian read-along today. Very exciting because we have gotten to the good stuff. I can officially say we are at chapters 9 and 10 and the plot is poppin'. What do you think, Lydia?

Yeah, this is definitely all those like foreboding and they didn't know what would come of this. And we are foreshadowing this to be bad news for the elves. This is where everything becomes bad news. We just found it. It's here. It's feigning on. We just found it. It's in chapters 9 and 10. Yeah.

Okay, so we, I think we just, with these, we just dig right in, right?

I think so. It's a little bit disjointed, but let's do it. So here's what's going on chapter title, The Flight of the Noldor. And you think, oh yes, they will definitely be fleeing from something that's chasing them, but no, definitely not. So what's going on here is, if I recall, what just, oh yeah, what just happened is that Undoliant crept in and sucked all the light out. This is, this is like a terrorist attack, right?

Yeah. This is, this is big news to everyone, big drama. The lights go out all over. The lights go out all over.

Huge drama. So I actually have a, you know, we just roll through this and whoever gets to their first quote first. So I have one, I have one right here actually. So Yavanna is speaking in front of the Valar right after this has happened. And I thought this was a really interesting thing she said. She says, even for those who are mightiest under Eluvatar, there is some work that they may accomplish once and once only.

The light of the trees I brought into being and within Ea, I can never do, I can do so never again. I just thought this was really interesting because it solves the immediate plot question of cool. So Undoliant just set up all the light, no problem, just make a new set of trees. It really kind of speaks towards why they move from these different light sources because we talked about like the Beetons before.

Now we're on the trees, eventually we'll get the sun and the moon. But so it solves a convenient plot problem, but at the same time it introduces a much better and greater theme of there are works that are so great they cannot be reproduced. I really enjoyed that as a concept. I really liked that. Because if you think about it like the way Eluvatar built the world, built Arta, likely a work not to be reproduced, right?

Yeah, and I think it's so interesting too. I'm curious if like the amount of light, like I think we were talking about worlds in a previous episode and world building across fantasy.

And I think we've gotten to the point where sometimes great works can happen so quickly and so easily. Where they feel very costly here. They feel very costly. Like it took us years, right? Almost centuries I want to say to build these light sources. This isn't something that just happens overnight.

No, definitely not. And something else that I thought was really interesting. I don't remember if I saved this quote, but later on it describes when Undolient eats something, it is destroyed. It's gone forever. So it makes me wonder if she cannot create these trees again because there is literally less light in the world.

Yeah, like there's less resource.

Yeah, exactly. There's less light in the world for her to pull into something. Yeah. And I suspect that's true just the way Undolient's like appetite and what happens to the things that she eats, the way it's described. That's what I feel like it must be. So it's really interesting to me to think of the sun and the moon as being lesser lights. Potentially because there is just less light in the world and so they cannot create a greater light. Wow.

Yeah, that was epic. And okay, the next piece kills me. All right. So the lights gone out. They're all around the trees. They call it the Ring of Doom now.

That's the first time I see that term, but now that the trees are gone, they call it the Ring of Doom. So they're sitting around and Manway, after he hears this from Yovanna, he asks Feynur, right? And so Feynur is the one who created the cimmerals. He's been having kind of a toad in the previous chapters.

He's having some disagreements with his stepbrothers, but he comes to this big event and Manway says, Feynur, you used the light of the trees to create the cimmerals. Would you be willing to give something back?

Right, because the theme that is happening here is she says, these trees are wounded, they're damaged. If I had some of the light of the cimmerals, if I had some of the light that they had

previously, I might be able to steal them. Maybe I could do something. Yeah. So it's a big, it's a huge benefit potentially. And yeah, Manway asks Feynur, hey, are you willing to give up your cimmerals to do this? Did you have the rest of the quote or? Oh, well, I just wanted to, I wanted to find the quote because it was so beautifully said how I feel like he was saying like you. Okay, let's see. Let's see what is it.

It says, and did not the light of the cimmerals come from her work in the beginning? Right. So he's like reminding him like, hey, you know, I know this is a big ask. This is like very precious to you. But like, remember, isn't this like her work, her original work is what created this thing that you love so much.

And then his response just, just kills me because he has more desire and respect and jealous pride over his work. Right. He's not thinking about necessarily Yvonne as piece of this.

He is just deeply unwilling to sacrifice it. That is for sure. Yeah. And so, and I really like the way he says it because he says, you know, they, the talk about how the Valor are unable to reproduce some of their great deeds. And he says, for the lesser, this is true as well. You know, there is some deed that he may accomplish, but once only. And so he says, it may be that I can unlock my jewels, but never again shall I make their life. Yeah. And he's just unwilling to sacrifice that.

And he says, if I must break them, I shall break my heart and I shall be slain. Yeah. Right. So he's like, this is going to be the death of me.

But, oh, before that too. So like, while he's considering Manway asked him this question and then I think it's so sweet. Alley, Alley's such a gem. And he says, but Alley the maker said, be not hasty. We ask a greater thing that thou knowest. Let him have peace. Yes. Yeah. A while.

Because she knows that it is a, it is a heavy price and I shouldn't make fun of Feyenoord because he does other naughty things later that we can make fun of him for. Yeah.

This is a genuinely hard price, especially considering the effort and the still required. I can't think. And they can't be replicated. And it can't be replicated.

Yeah. And I'm trying to think of like, is there something in my life that couldn't be replicated? And the closest thing I came to was if somebody had told me in order to save, you know, X, Y, Z, you must smash a violin, right? Oh, it's like violins are just like such a work of art and frankly cannot be replicated because it's like that wood with that polish with that combination with that lusier, like all the different elements. I don't have like the particular violin I don't have right now is not like, it's not my childhood one. It's not the one that I'm super attached to.

If they had told me to smash my childhood violin, I wouldn't have been able to do it. Oh, you're like, but wait. Yeah, exactly. So anyways, I was sympathetic to Feyenoord in this, but also not surprised by his response and also disappointed.

Yeah. I mean, I guess I think I'm a little harsher because the original light is Yvonne's. And so I'm really like, honestly, this is her creation. The thing that makes it light up like the way you love is not even from you. Like you captured it in a little, I'm being rough. I'm being rough.

You think that he went to the black sand beach and took a vial of black sand and is being asked to give one single pebble. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Anyways, so he says no at the end of the day. He doesn't say no.

The next thing I have is Nienna and her reaction, which is, okay, so we have been denied the potential of healing the trees. So she does the next best thing and she does to the trees and it says, and with her tears washed away the defilements of undolient.

And I just got rid of the darkness. Yeah.

Kind of that. I'm sure undolient was doing unspeakable things and she was able to cleanse it, which is just as good as you can get in this situation. Yeah.

And then we have some really heavy news on top of the heavy news of the trees and Feyn or saying, no, I'm not going to give you the summer rolls. Yes. We have everyone.

This is what strikes me. It's really funny is Feyn or says, if I have to. I have to break my simrules. I'll die of heartbreak, essentially is what he says. And he says, I'll be the first at the elder to die.

And Mando says, not the first. And I just feel like he knows, but nobody reacts to him ever. So I feel like he's just like a sidelined character talking directly to the TV, breaking the full cost of all.

Nobody or yeah. Nobody turns around. What's that Mando says? Mando's, what could you possibly mean by that?

They're just like, he's saying cryptic stuff all the time.

Exactly. They have the way for the actual messenger to come and it just struck me as very funny. So the messenger comes and we find out that Fenway Feyn or father has been murdered by Melkor in his palace on his flight. Yeah. Where he was leaving, where he was living and Melkor has at the same time stolen the similar else. Yeah.

So double whammy. Double whammy there. And this is actually really iconic. This is where it says, and Feyn or Rose and lifting up his hand before Manway, he cursed Melkor, naming him Morgoth, the black foe of the world. And by that name only was he known to the elder ever after. So this is chronicle, you know, like this is a strong history.

Yeah. Yeah. Is this moment. I was at first thinking when we had just kind of stemmed some of the storyline before in our first couple of episodes, I was at first thinking that Feyn or called Morgoth or Melkor Morgoth because of the theft of the similar else and only because of their theft. I think it's a little bit more to his credit that his father is also has also died here. Yeah.

There's a little more, there's there's a loss, but there's also a anguish.

It's a personal. I'm sure he takes the same roles very personally, but it feels like there's more of a touching more of a personal loss here. Whereas if the only reason Morgoth got his name was because he stole Feyn or his pretty jewels, I'd be like, ah, you know, he also did some other bad stuff. But I can see why the loss of Fenway, like the murder, the first shedding of blood really. Isn't that what this is?

Like the first death of an elf. Yeah, I think so. Yeah, that's a huge deal. And that I could see him getting his name for. So that was interesting to me. Yeah.

And so at this point, I think we can safely say Fenway goes off the cliff. Everything else that happens in this chapter or Feyn or exactly Feyn or goes off the cliff. Everything else that happens in chapter nine and chapter 10, as you guys will see is just, you know, him really struggling with the concept of something that he created his like pride and joy being gone. And also his father, who we get the impression is the only real person in the world who like loved him.

Yeah. Or his stepbrothers have a weird relationship. And who Feyn or loved. Right. He does have sons. He does have sons, but I don't know. I haven't gotten the impression he loves him.

Burr. It's not there yet for me. This is the prime relationship in his life. For sure. We talked about earlier. I think it was a couple chapters earlier how his relationship with his wife is kind of a death and he doesn't have a super strong relationship there. So this is his person yet. And he's longer.

And Mordroth has escaped. I do think it's funny that immediately in the book we don't hear mentioned in melty or anymore. It's always Mordroth now.

Yeah. It's incredible how quickly it just is a switch.

I just feel like as an author, I would have messed up. I would be living right now.

all the time. I do that just in our podcast I go back and forth like I no biggie.

Exactly. So the next bit that I thought was cool was we now get a little snippet of Mordoth and Ungoliant as they flee. Yeah. And it says, together they went on for Mordoth could not elude Ungoliant and her cloud was still about him and all her eyes were upon him. And this one. All her eyes. All her eyes.

All her eyes. That's gross. But this just reminded me. I thought about this. Okay, cool.

This is at the beginning of the movie of the Bithaist where the villains have their Bithaist and they steal all the treasure and now they're turning on each other. Yeah. It was filled with tension. But yeah, all her eyes. Awful. Then we have this interesting scene where they did to a place of relative safety. I think this is Untomno or Angbad or something like that. Yeah.

So he's just to his fortress. We should say there's a sense of uncomfortableness between these two. They've gone, they've done their epic deed. But as they're fleeing, you know, Mordoth is kind of like, if I can get to my house or my fortress and elude her, maybe I can kind of get away from this kind of scary partner that I've aligned myself with. Right. And she's aware of this.

Yes. And this is what she says, Blackheart, I have done thy bidding, but I hunger still. And now she harkens back to his promise, which was, of course, I'll give you everything and I'll do it with both hands. With both hands.

Yeah. So he starts giving her stuff with one hand. He starts giving her gems and she's eating them. And then eventually calls him out because of course she's unsated. And she says, with one hand there Divas, she said, with the left only open thy right hand.

I love how it's like metaphorical in the previous chapters, but in this scene, yes, it's literal.

And there's, there's got to be some layer of symbology here, like the left hand versus the right hand, et cetera, et cetera. I don't know exactly what it would be. But no doubt there is it.

And then the follow online is really good. I just love the scene. It felt very cinematic.

I was like, I could picture this, right? In his right hand, Mordoth held closed the Silmarils. And though they were locked in a crystal tested, they had to be done to burn him. So we had seen, I think it was a Varda who put a ward on the

Silmarils that nothing needed to touch it. Right. And I remember having the thought, I was like, Oh, well, isn't this going to be hard for all the people who are going to come after like and take it all the bad guys. So now we see that it is. And it says his hand was clenched in pain, but he would not open it. And so this is where he,

he decides that he has to fight back against Andolean. He's been kind of just trying to escape her. He's been trying to like indulge her and like distract her. And now giving up the Silmarils is too high a price. Literally, I mean, this is obviously the theme of the book, but giving up the Silmarils is too high a price for anyone. And I feel like this is just the predecessor to the ring.

You know, what's so fascinating to me is like the ring we get the sense was sourced from evil intent. Right. All of the malice, all of the anger that Soran had into the into this thing.

There was no drifting in it. Simerals. Simerals are the opposite. Are like the ultimate goods thing. Yeah. So I love this scene that it forces people into this either too much of a good thing or too much of an evil thing. Like forces people into this like strange possessive trance.

If you overly desire something, you almost get the sense of what you want to put that above all else. Yeah. And obviously what he's saying here is like, it doesn't matter what you desire. You can desire a good thing. You can desire an evil thing. Doesn't matter. It's the issue is in the desire is in the way.

Yeah. Like the way it twists the way you act and behave and treat the people around you. Oh, that's bold. That's a cool theme. It's really cool.

Probably another thing that didn't get picked up by fantasy in general. Okay. Where are we at? So they're having a standoff. They're having a standoff. Yeah. Which is really good. Okay. So there's a scene here. Ungoliant wraps him up in webs and shadow, etc. Yeah.

And so she's upset.

She's like, you are going to get me right now. And she's more powerful than him. This is what we're finding out. She is more powerful than him. And so it says drink the trees. Yep. And then Morgoth sent forth a terrible cry. And it talks about how ever since that area where he cried out, you still hear the echoes of it. It's like a ringing. So interesting. And guess who hears it?

Our good friends, the bow rocks. Your friendly neighbors from underneath.

They come busting up. I really like this quote here. It says, with their whips of flame, they smote us under the webs of Ungoliant. Again, just like, oh, so dead. And she quelled and turned to flight belching black vapors to cover her growth. So she pulls like the squid inked octopus.

And it makes me wonder, because we talked about bow rocks, there wasn't a firm number. And how many Tolkien was envisioning, I think in his later writings, it became fewer and fewer as it was picturing them being very powerful. But I'm curious how many it took to put on gold because you Ungoliant just drank the light of the trees. Ungoliant is like, how powerful.

Ungoliant has Pete. This is her final form.

Morgoth is of, or Malkor is afraid of, no, it's Morgoth now. Is afraid of her. And so how many of these dudes did it take for her to get intimidated?

More than one. Like more than, I think a lot more than one.

And they didn't kill her. And they just like, they didn't kill her. They just drove her off. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's really interesting. It says that she then goes off to this valley of dreadful death, which is called that because of the horror that she bred there for other foul creatures of spider form had dwelt there since the days of the delving of on bod. And she baited with them and devoured them just like, you, why are spiders this way? I really hate spiders.

So nasty. But from this, and it says like, I thought this was really interesting because you get this sense like she's this ultimate evil at this point. Yeah. And so she goes off into this place, into this

layer where she can create more of her. Yeah. And then it says, of the fate of Ungoliant, no tale tells yet. Some have said that she ended long ago when in her utmost famine, she devoured herself at last.

And that's such a good line. Such a good line. You don't know, is she still around? Probably not. But how did she die? And you think, did she, she's supposed to be potentially this symbolic figure of like the bad and the shadow and everything else in the world. She, she lived in the outside of round Arda. So like that just feeds on itself. And it just so hungry and hungry. It just consumes it.

Yeah. I don't know. It's very poetic. Very. Yeah. And like there's room in Tolkien's world for like unknown things we don't know about Ungoliant. No one knows. Maybe it comes up in his notes somewhere that we haven't read them. But like, I like the concept of no one knows what happened to her. Yeah.

Also, this is probably where she love came from. Call out she love. Hate her too. Yeah. Anyway, but we have her, we have her lineage as well. Yeah.

I love that. Okay. So now we have Mordoth who is hanging out in Anbad. Anbad. I'm not saying that word right. In bad. In bad. We'll find out for next time. So he's hanging out there.

And I really enjoyed this. He called himself king of the world, but also talks about how he never left the place. So I feel like there's a part of him that is like stared a little bit scarred by his imprisonment. He's afraid to risk himself.

He's afraid to go out there. But he wants to flex his power. He wants to be perceived as great. He probably perceives himself as great.

Yeah. Even if it's just to himself. So he calls himself king of the world, which was cool.

And I really like this fire. He wears a great crown of iron and he set the silverals in his crown. His hands were burned black by the touch of those hallowed jewels and black they remained ever after.

Nor was he ever free from the pain of the burning and the anger of the pain. Amazing. What an amazing line. The pain of the burning and the anger of the pain. So yeah, it's just so good. But can you imagine this? You took on his form of terror and never took it off.

Sounds like he's he's consistently he's getting beat up no longer. This story goes.

Yeah. Yeah. He does not look pretty. No pretty faces anymore. But you have this dark lord and instead of like, I don't know what the rest of the crown looks like. And maybe this would make it look even more terrible. But like maybe there's this terrible crown that he's wearing and in it is set the most beautiful thing you've ever seen. Like blinding. Like that contrast has to be amazing.

Yeah. So I love this this concept because it's it feels like a more subtle way to portray a dark lord that I think Tolkien gets credit for. But if you think about the way morgoth looks like to you know anybody who saw him it's like this great and terrible figure accompanied by brilliant light. And that just that dichotomy is awesome to me.

It's so interesting to me too. Because basically on his head what he is wearing is what he wants to be. Sure. Right. But he can't possess it. I want to be the ultimate creator.

I want to be someone who has this light and power. Right. You're talking about like the powers of Eiru but but twisted to his own will.

Right. So he's basically he's like what an interesting way of presenting yourself because basically he's wearing what he wants to be. But he is himself which is not the person who's able to create that. Right. Who can never have it. Or wield that. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting. Yeah. That's a brilliant crown though.

Let me see what else I've got. I think. Yeah. My next one is Feyenoor's great speech.

Do you have anything before that? Back to Feyenoor. Yeah. So I think just like the preface of that Feyenoor goes back to his hometown. His dad is dead and he is pissed. He is not happy. And so that kind of precedes exactly what you were saying. Yeah.

And so this sparked a speech. Let's return to Middle Earth's speech. Yeah. And it's pretty interesting actually. There's a couple of phrases in here that I really liked. So he says you know he's talking about you know are we going to stay here in this place with the Valar or shall we return to our home in Cuvianin.

I don't know how to say that. In Cuvianin, sweet ran the waters under unplated stars and wide lands lay about where free people might walk. There they lie still and await us who in our folly forsook them. Come away.

Let the cowards keep this city. And he's just he's just he's got so much venom and vim in his speech. It's really interesting. And I really like the way he's phrased it as we're going to go win our freedom. There are great realms for us. And then he ties it into all the stuff that Melkor was talking about which is what everyone so he did in the first place of when we have conquered and have regained the Silmarils then we and we alone shall be the Lords of the Unsullied Light and Masters of the Bliss and Beauty of Arda no other race shall oust us. So he manages to connect the Silmarils into this idea of we need these these are like gonna keep us going and once we have them we'll be so powerful that those humans can't possibly dare to compare it to compete with us.

Something I think is so interesting and just like a little bit of added context around this speech is so he creates these Simmerals we know that Morgoth goes to him and kind of gives him all of these lies right all of these fancy words in the earlier chapters and he generally is kind of suspicious of Morgoth he gets he gets bought into some of them but he's kind of suspicious but then when his Simmerals are oh and the last lie that Morgoth told him was he said be careful of the Simmerals right like the Valar are gonna want them because the Valar want them yeah and so then all of this goes down and even though he knows that Morgoth is the ultimate evil that he's the one who is responsible for stealing Simmerals that he's the one responsible for killing his

father he ties it back into Morgoth's original message about men

yeah yeah about men and the Valar being evil and then he said you're right look the Valar did ask for my Simmerals because the trees were burnt you know were so were destroyed who destroyed that Morgoth but he didn't focus on that he says they did they asked for my Simmerals can you believe it can you believe it and then and then as he's like going back to talk to the other people he's focusing on those lies that Morgoth said again but about men right like men are gonna come and they're gonna take over Middle Earth and you know the Valar don't want us to be in a position of power there and so it's so fascinating to me to see how even though he knows

he knows who the real villain is I don't know that he buys into what Morgoth says but he's willing to use it

he needs something to drive them yeah he's so jealous yeah that he gets wrapped up and he's so wrathful he's

not thinking well maybe he is thinking straight I'm not sure but like yeah he is so tied up in the Simmerals like he can't think of anything else and he'll do anything to get them back

yeah and so basically he says I want to leave this place one because my Simmerals are gone

right and I want to get them back 100% because the Simmerals are gone and he has to convince everyone else to come with him

because he needs an army yeah yeah and two and two he's he's saying this but I think this might be how he feels too he's like like, why are the Valar special? Right? I don't trust them anymore.

They weren't able to protect the thing I loved, which was the cimmerals and my dad. Right? Like why them telling me I should be here?

Who cares? What do they bring to me? Right?

What can they bring to me? Right? And so he wants the cimmerals, but also he's saying, I'm kind of fed up with these people. Right? And he's trying to spread that through everybody else at this point. Yep.

And it works. So it says that everyone, pretty much everyone signs onto this toss. Like they are even the ones who like don't necessarily even like Feynors says that they were impassioned by his speech. And they did sign on essentially.

And I think a lot of it was to not necessarily a trust of what he was saying about, oh, the Valar are evil and we got to get the cimmerals. But it seemed like a lot of them were curious about Middle Earth. Yes. Right?

Because it had been long enough. They had left it. Yeah. And they're like, oh, maybe you're right. Maybe we should go back. Yeah. You know, there is definitely a curiosity there, like a longing.

Yeah. Um, when they do go though, it says he's told him says, all was done and overhaste for Feyenor drove them on faring less in the cooling of their hearts. His words should wane and other councils yet prevail. And so, um, I think there were people who were expecting, Oh, will the Valar say something? You know, will they do something to dense this? And it sounds like they just held their peace because one, I think they didn't know what exactly they should say to, they're not in the business of prison keeping, no matter what Feyenor might say. So like, yeah, they're, they're not going to try to persuade someone to stay if they don't want to. Um, but I liked this line a lot.

Um, it says for the Valar did not yet believe that Feyenor could hold the host of Noldor to his will. So they're, they're looking at him thinking, yeah, I mean, you've whipped them up into a sort of a frenzy, but like how long will this stick? Let's, I think they're, they're holding down the root of let's be patient. Let's not misstep.

Let's not make things worse. Um, then they are right now. Let's wait and see. Um, and ultimately it's probably the right thing to do. Cause like at no point are they, they're not holding anyone in Valor. Right.

Yeah. And they make that clear, right? They send a messenger kind of once things are hitting their peak and it looks like people are going to leave. Yeah. Right. They send a messenger that basically says, Hey, listen, we're from Manway. We're from the Valar and you can go. Yeah. We're not keeping you here, but we will say that we picture a lot of pain and sorrow along the path of leaving.

The way Feyenor rejects the Herald is really interesting to me. Bold. Yeah. It's extremely prideful. So I thought it was really interesting. He says, such hurt will I do to the foe of the Valar, Mordoth, that even the mighty in the ring of doom shall wonder to hear it. Yay. In the end, they shall follow me farewell. So he's saying like, you know, those Valar are going to be underneath my foot soon, which is just bold,

bold, wild because they do say in the message too, I didn't say this. They do say, and they're, they kind of warned them. And they're like, FYI, whatever you're planning to do with Mordoth, like you're probably not going to be victorious. They're like, let me just give you a little bit of a heads up. Like that's probably not going to end well. And he's cocky. He's like, you don't know me. Right. Like that's basically what he says. Can't tell me to clean my room.

Yeah. I, I mean, obviously it doesn't go well, but it was interesting to see him start off like this, like so badly. Um, with such an attitude. Yep.

Okay. I will go ahead. Oh, sorry. Go ahead.

Oh, I was just going to say there's a line in here. Yeah. Yeah. There's a line in here where he start talking about, um, they're leaving. They're, they're, and they're traveling light. They're not bringing much. And the people who do bring stuff, who bring me mementos, I thought there was a really cute phrase here.

Um, it says the things that they took with them were a solace and a burden on the road. So you did that, that double edge sword. Yeah. I loved that. That was very nice.

I will say there's one other thing I wanted to comment on about the message from the Valar here. So they say also they're like, you can go, it's going to be a painful road.

FYI, you might not be successful against Morgoth. And then also they say, and we're not going to keep you, but we're not going to help you either. Right. And I think that's really key because I don't, I don't know the full arc of what happens after this, but essentially it's Morgoth versus the descendants of Feynor for a long time.

And those descendants of Feynor do not have the help of Valar with them. They don't have the help of the Valar. The only time, and this is like before, you know, kind of the events right before Lord of the Rings, when Morgoth is again conquered is when I think this is Elendil, the sailor who they named the star after goes back to Valinor. He sails across and he petitions and he says, please come to our aid. And so basically this message for me is it makes sense to me because when I kind of heard this arc, I was like, where are the Valar? Sure.

Where are the Valar? And they said, we're not going to be involved. We, you have stepped away from our, like you, like, yeah. What's the word I'm looking for? There's a religious connotation here. You have left your God.

But also, and I can't remember. Maybe it's a little bit later. Oh, actually, I think we passed it. They, Feynor and his, and his sons, they take an oath. Yes. And it's kind of, you almost get the impression like a not very good oath.

Yes. And everyone looks at it goes, oh no, what did you do? They're kind of terrified. They say, we are going to, you know, harm basically whoever thinks they can take the Simmerals from us. Yeah. And so I think the Valar are also looking at this and they're saying, you're not going down a great path. Like we're not going to defend that.

You know, and they make it explicit and they make that promise not to. So yeah.

Yeah. So it answered a question in my mind when I had earlier heard this arc of this Simmeralian where I was just like, where were they? Yeah.

Why did they wait so long? Justine. Okay. All right. Now we're getting into something dark and nasty. So Feynor is driving people with him. He's trying to keep them on the move, always ready.

Like he wants them to, he doesn't want anyone to have time to rest and have a well-formed thought. Um, so he's keeping everyone moving and he realizes that he needs ships. Um, and the Tulare, I believe it is, who have built the ships. They are, which is another subset of elves. Right. They're asking for some of the last to come.

Um, they are not willing to dip them up. So what they say to Feynor is this, um, these are to us as are the gems of the Noldor, the work of our hearts whose light we shall not mate again. So these are the original ships, um, that they built, um, under the direction of, I'm not going to remember his name. It's not Ulmo.

It's his second, his Lieutenant. Um, but they were taught to make these by I think either one of the Mayer, I think. So they are genuinely beautiful, well-crafted ships. I think these might be the Swan headed ships. Yeah, they are. Yeah. Okay. Perfect. Um, so yeah, so he basically pulls Feynors lying against him and he says, you know, this is a work that cannot be reproduced. We can't give them to you. And does Feynor respect this? Absolutely not.

This is when I kind of lost all respect for Feynor.

Yeah. He went too far.

Goes, yeah, extreme. And he, so he goes away. I think it's interesting. He has these hidden words with the Tulare. It's basically, are you no longer my friend? Like you don't care about me. And they're like, no, we're your friends, but this is like a big ask.

You're asking too much of us. Yeah. Yeah. And he goes away and I think, okay, what's he going to come up with?

Right. He's pondering. What is he going to come up with? But then he doesn't come up with something else. He basically says, I need those shit. Let's straight up murder these people. And he comes back and he starts war. Yeah.

Which is so interesting. Against the elves. This is the first internecine war. Yes. First off, I guess it's the first war. I was not expecting it to be internecine. I was not expecting elf the elf.

I was expecting elf versus dwarf or elf versus man or something like that. So this is or or yeah. Another great option. So this was a surprise to me.

I also thought Tolkien did a really good job of like portraying like the Fog of War. So Feyenoor attacks. And you know, there are people with ostensibly who are with Feyenoor, who aren't like really with him, but they don't know that Feyenoor started it. And so they just see, oh my gosh, we're under attack. We have to go, you know, come to his aid. So like the people who are farther back who didn't understand what started it, they all come rushing up and they start killing the Tulare too. So he really suckers.

This is a journey. Yeah. He really suckers a lot of people into committing this like crime, essentially. Yeah. That otherwise, if they had known the facts would not have. So I thought that was very interesting.

Yeah, it is interesting because you have. So Feyenoor was pretty successful in getting people to come with him for different reasons, including his stepbrothers. Right. And so a stepbrothers have companies that they're leading, which are like a little bit behind his, and that's exactly who you're referring to, right? Where he starts fight, he starts this war. These other companies are coming up in their journey and they're seeing this battle and they think, oh my goodness, something happened. Maybe they were sent from the Valar to keep us here and they enter it without knowledge, right? And they start killing as well. Yep.

So it's a bad time. They win. They take the boats and then something happens. I thought it was very interesting. So basically the Valar send another Herald. It said it's just, it's not just a Herald, it's Mandoz himself. And Mandoz prophesies. He says, or he speaks a doom to them, I think it's called the prophecy of the north and the doom of the noldor. So what he says, one of the things he says, I thought was really nice, really nice, really interesting tears on numbered Eshal shed and the Valar will fence Valinor against you and shut you out so that not even the echo of your lamentation shall pass over the mountains. Those are stone cold words. Yeah.

Not even the echo of your lamentation. Wild. Um, I thought it was really interesting. I don't know how that plays out. Because we had previously discussed how Valinor was fenced off from the numerores, Numenorians.

Um, and now I'm thinking, okay, so some elves can get to Valador, but if you are coming from noldor descent, you're not allowed. Like. Interesting. Maybe they repent. I don't know. But I loved like all the phrasing in that is so good. Yeah.

Where they basically say, cause initially the Herald was like, okay, we want to warn you this is not a great path. Don't take it. Right.

And now they say you have taken this path and now it is too late for you. Yeah.

They're like, you killed people. Right. Like you murdered your own kind. They're like, that's a no go. You're not coming back. Yep.

Uh, there's also at the tail end of what Mando says, uh, there's a line that I thought Dave, um, a lot of depth to the subtext that's in Lord of the Reans, which is all about like the diminishing of the elves. Um, so I really like this line at the end where it says, and those that endure in middle earth and come not to Mando's, I think, you know, they don't die. Uh, shall grow weary of the world as with a great burden and shall wane and become a shadows of regret before the younger race that cometh after the valor has spoken. So it just, it's interesting when you previously, when I have thought about the diminishing of the elves, it's always been, Oh yeah, you know, of course, that's sad. It's very poignant, very beautiful, very well portrayed. And now I looked at him like it's still all of those things. Plus it's the culmination of this curse for their great sins, which I thought I really

liked, which is saying like you want to get to middle earth so badly. Yeah. It's not going to be everything that you thought it would be. Exactly. Careful what you wish for.

Yeah. Yep. So loved that. Um, the follow up to Mando's speeches then many twailed the Feyenoor heart in his heart, typical effing Feyenoor. Oh my goodness. So, oh, and I'll go ahead.

Oh, I was just going to say, and there is, so we talked about those different companies, right? I can step brothers and family that were following behind him who participated in the war. And so there, there is a group that it sounds like maybe they didn't participate in the war.

They were so far back that they hear this and they decided to turn around. That is true. I did leave them out.

Um, yeah. Good for them. There's a small subset of them, but then there's drama to be held even down the road with the other subgroups of the Noldor who are continuing their journey.

Which we'll get to pretty much right now. So what happens is like they keep journeying. They did on their boats. There's a storm. Bad stuff is happening. They did to a certain place. It feels like they're not quite in middle earth yet.

They're like on the way, but not there yet. Um, and it says that they come to, uh, this is cool. Uh, vast fards and mists of deathly cold and the sea streams are filled with clashing hills of ice and the grinding of ice deep something. Such was the Helcorax. And there none yet had dared to tread, save the Valar only and unroll it. First off, the Helcorax is one of the coolest names I've ever stumbled across.

How does Tolton just keep winning all the time? Um, and yeah, I love the idea of this health shape being a freezing cold, uh, because I think we often see is the foreboding land state we think, ah, yes, the pits of doom and the lava. And I'm like, no, the cold is the real enemy here. Cause that's how I feel.

So I love this. Like they, they go to Antarctica and they find it not to their taste. Um, as, as it should be. So we're stuck here. There's basically like this nasty grinding ice in the sea.

There's this other land path that is like horrible and cold and much longer and we're on the bank of this river, essentially. And Feyenoord. And there's not enough. And there's not enough ships to take everyone. There would be enough ships if Feyenoord could share, but we know how he is. So what he does instead is he says, Yolo, I'm gonna take all my best friends that we're going to the ships right now.

We're going to cross this little, I think it was probably pretty wide, but we're going to cross the straight. Yeah. So they do. And they get to the other side and I believe it's one of his sons. Yeah. One of his sons says, awesome dad, we made it. Which of the ships are we going to send back from my buddy Fienden? Like, I think this is his cousin.

Um, yeah, which is the other sex, the family.

One of the subsets. And it says Feyenoord laughed as one Fey and he tried none and none. I just amazing. So he's like crazy. He's at this point pretty crazy, I think.

And says, what I have left behind, I count now no loss, needless baggage on the road. It has proved, let those that cursed my name curse me still and wind their way back to the cages of the Valar. Let the ships burn.

Yeah. It's a whole speech. And it's, whoa. And there's a lot to say about this. This is really interesting because you could say one, he's mad potentially. Um, or at least acting like it, but two, maybe he's just really savvy because.

There are a lot of situations where commanders have said, nope, we are burning the ships Cortez in the new world burns the ships. He's not leaving his people and he like, any like. Path of escape in their minds.

They're with him and they are stuck with him. So I think this is half. I don't want to go back for those people and two. And the other half of it is I am binding the people here with me. They are bound to me. We are burning.

We're getting rid of the estate patch. Um, so I think it's a little bit of a combo move. Um, the follow up line here is really interesting and Fingolfin and his people saw the light afar off bread beneath the clouds and they knew that they were betrayed. Oh boy. Oh boy. So dead. Um, I have another line here.

So I'm just going to read it. They know that they can't cross the river. So they have to go the long way. They have to make the lawn march through the, yeah, through like

an I am now in the past. Um, and it says, and finding no other way, they endured. They, they tried all the different paths. They tried everything and finding no other way. They endured at last the terror of the health cracks and the cruel hills of ice. Few of the deeds of the noldor thereafter surpassed that desperate crossing in hardy hood or whoa. So that is interesting. Yeah. They lose a lot of people. Yep.

And the enmity, the enmity between them is sealed. Yeah.

And they, but they make it

and they make it to the middle earth. They make it. And at that point, you're right. There's these two sets of people or two sets of elves on middle earth. And I'm sure this is going to play out in an interesting way moving forward. And they are hateful of each other. And do we call them both noldor?

So I think technically they're both noldor.

They're both noldor, but I think now it's Feyenoors and Fingolfinns. Feyenoors and Fingolfinns. Okay. And, um, also I might add Galadriel is in this group. Ah, yes. Galadriel is in the group. That crosses the icy, the icy mountain. Yeah.

So I have some vague concept about Galadriel and some hairs and like maybe Feyenoor involved. So it's cool to see this setup as like, no, she hates him real good. And this, there's real reason why. And yeah, like she endured. Yeah. I was, did you like the picture that they put in the book? Oh, wait, I got it. I didn't wait. Which picture? It's right after that chapter where they have like a chain of elves hiking through these horrible icy beds. I see that.

It's why I really liked it. It looks terrible. I liked the one of the swan boats. Yeah, exactly.

The swan boats was pretty. So that was chapter nine. And I gotta say that was like, there was a lot going on there. I was waiting for that chapter. So much happening.

Yeah. Chapter 10 was lighter for me. Definitely less going on.

It's more of a, I felt like it was more of a meanwhile. Exactly. Exactly.

So there's a few things to say, but I don't have that much. It definitely goes meanwhile. While all that action is happening over here, let's have a little Spongebob SpongeBob break. Yeah.

And what was going on in Middle Earth?

What was happening in Middle Earth? So we have in Middle Earth, I'm not gonna remember his name. Sorry. It was Thingol and Malian. That's right. So Thingol who was in Source Hold, we have Malian the Maya. I'm Malian. And they produce the most beautiful baby is what we hear. Luthian, the only child.

I thought that was interesting. So Luthian is born. We finally get a name. We finally get to meet her. That was exciting. They talked a lot about meeting with the Dwarves for the first time.

Yes, which I thought was so interesting. So and also to clarify, this is like the chapters called of the Sendar. So we're talking about like the Sendar elves that stayed behind on purpose.

Never went to Valinor. In Middle Earth. Never went to Valinor. And yeah, this is about them and they meet the Dwarves. And I love their reaction. The elves were filled with amazement for they had believed themselves to be the only living things in Middle Earth that spoke with words or wrought with hands. So there's a lot of things to think about this one. It would be weird to find like freaking aliens.

Because that's what it is, right? On your world. On your world. They've been living there. Yeah.

So that would be very weird. Secondly, my other thought here was, did the Sendar not catch the good word of Melkor? They don't know anything about humans, right?

Is that what we're getting here? I don't think they do. Yeah. Yeah. So that will be interesting news when they meet the Noldor and the Noldor are like, yeah, you hear you heard about humans.

Yeah. So I'm excited for that. So we meet the Dwarves, they have some relations. It doesn't seem like very, there's no enmity really. So that was interesting. I was expecting, I don't know when that enmity will develop. I was expecting it to happen here, frankly. But now I'm thinking, you know, who's going to start that little feud?

Probably Faeinor. Yeah, he's such a bad place. Well, and we get the impression, I'm trying to find the quotes, but we get the impression that they trade. There's like trade between the Dwarves and the elves.

And there's knowledge transfer. It looks like somebody, Elvish invented runes and probably for the purpose of stone carving. And the elves were like, eh, they're all right, I guess. And the Dwarves are like, no, you don't understand.

These are the best scenes ever. And they take them and they run with them, which is really cute. Like I love that. And I do feel like that's how alphabets transmit. Like you get so many alphabets that influence each other in the real world.

Why not this one? Let's see. Then we get like the meetings, like first time meeting orcs. Yeah, I thought that was interesting. There's a really interesting line here. It says, when they met the orcs, the elves knew not then. Once they came or what they were, they thought that they, thinking them perhaps to be a Vari, a set of the elves, who had become evil and savage in the wild. In which they dast all too near. And I just, because of the orcs being twisted elves.

Obviously it's not like, oh no, that elven prince too bad he went camping for two weeks too long and turned into his hideous creature. So it's not like that, but they're not not right. Yeah.

And I think it's interesting. So they encountered them because while all of this has been happening, Morgoth went off, he left his fortress, a tomb, no, an eng band alone. And so all of these dark things that he bred are kind of just creeping out.

They don't really know that purpose. They don't have a purpose. They're not driven, but they're just out there.

Yeah. So they're just creeping out. They're slowly coming down south. And that's when the orcs encounter the elves. And we see wolves and then the dwarves talk about dark things too. And I wonder if this is when they're saying, Are they delving too deep? There's something coming into our caverns. Right. Like there's something coming into our mountains. Oh, that's creepy.

I don't have any more comments on this except for one more, which was a really cool moment. It's like further down towards the end. So let me know if you have stuff before. But this is where they start encountering all these creepy and dark terrifying things. And Mellion puts her powers to good use. It says, she put forth her power and fenced all that dominion roundabout with an unseen wall of shadow and bewilderment.

The Dirtle of Mellion. That none there after to pass it in her will. And so now there's like this protected kingdom where nobody can get there. They bounce off this wall. They get confused about where they're at. They get misdirected and sent astray. And I just, this really plays into the whole like elves they retreat. They retreat and they hold their ground. Some amount of ground, not a ton.

It's not clear how much ground. But they're not, it felt very enteric that this is the way they should be, especially with how we see like La Florian, et cetera, et cetera.

It makes me think because we talk about like, where do they get this protection? Is it just the power of the rings? Do they all just have some kind of magic power that they can utilize to defend themselves? Part of me wonders if some of it's handed down from this genealogy of like.

That's what I was wondering too. I was like, is this, I don't think this is La Florian. This feels like a different place. But obviously it's a similar concept. So I wonder if there's a similar history to La Florian, like and the

La Florian's protection is kind of what they, that area of Belarion is what they're calling this. Yeah, I guess. A protected area, maybe.

Yeah. So I thought that was really cool. I really appreciate Melian for doing that. And I thought, I guess she can use her powers for good and not just for the ensnaring of unsuspecting people.

Yeah, that's a, that's a good point.

But I guess it also gives us a little insight into where Luthien grows up, right? Yeah, exactly. This is the scenario. This is the scene of her childhood, I guess. Yeah.

And Luthien in the future, we're going to hear the tale, I think, Erdogan sings this of Baron and Luthien, right? And I think it's reported that Tolkien wrote Baron and Luthien about him and his wife. He thought his wife was the most beautiful, wonderful person. So he wrote her into this, to this being, which is really sweet. So yeah, she's going to have a whole story and epic on her own.

I am excited for that because I've heard the name enough and I have no context for it. Like even less than I had for Feanor. Yeah. I appreciated how the end of this chapter, this whole, meanwhile over there in Middle Earth chapter, the climax of it is Feanor burning the ships. Like that moment of betrayal that sealed the deal. So that was the end of the chapter for me. Did you have anything else? Yeah.

And so I will say just like a little tidbit. So all of this is going on and we could generally say that they don't really know what's happening in Valinor, right? Like there's not a lot of information.

I don't think there's any information. Yeah, crossing. But what's interesting is once the trees go out, they notice something, right? The trees go out and then at the very end it says, but new tidings were at hand, which none of the Middle Earth had foreseen.

Neither Morgoth and his pits, nor Melian and Menegoth, for no news came out of Omen, whether by messenger, by spirit, by vision or by dream after the death of the trees. And so you get this impression there's maybe not a lot of communication, but there might be something. There might be dreams. There might be messages and like revelations.

Yeah. So it's like the gods go silent. Yeah. And the lights go out, which has got to be terrifying. For sure. That's an Omen. That's an Omen. And so that's kind of where we're left. Like they're living on their own. They're meeting new creatures. They're creating, you know, fortresses and homes. The interaction with dwarves. And then the lights go out.

And then the lights go out and they're like, oh man, what's going to happen? Right. So, so. So I am very excited for what's going to happen. So the next chapter titles are, oh, this is fun. Of the Sun and Moon and the Hiding of Valinor, dope. Chapter 12, shortest title, dopest of men. Of men. Yay. I mean, yay, we'll see. I can't imagine that's going to be good. Like, yeah, I don't know.

I want to know what Feynord does. He is my least favorite character

at this point, but I'm also intrigued by him. Yeah, he is the worst. So we are roughly halfway through the Silverillion.

No way. Oh my gosh, I'm so proud.

Yeah, we're doing great. Great job, guys. But it's interesting to me that it feels like Feynord's story is just starting.

I know there's going to be a lot.

We're going to be with him for a while. To be with him for a while. Yeah, we'll see what goes on there. But that, I think that's a wrap for those chapters.

That's a wrap. Thank you so much, guys. And we'll try to get to you. Ciao.

Bye.