Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia.

Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, read-alons, and laugh-alons.

We are excited to have you as a new friend on this journey with us. Welcome to Speak Friend and Enter, a Lord of the Rings podcast.

Hey guys, welcome to the podcast. So today we're going to talk about the Silmarillion chapters 1 and 2. Welcome to our read-along. Yeah, exactly. And like this is the read-along for experts, right?

Where it's, we're not going to tell you what happened in here if you didn't read it, you're screwed. I actually had like general thoughts about this first because my first impression, having avoided the Silmarillion for years and years and years, my first impression was, why haven't I avoided this for years and years and years? This is not so bad.

Oh my gosh, I literally had the same thought process because I remember people being like, oh, it's less of a story, like you're not going to be as engaged, it's more just like facts. And maybe as it goes along, it's going to get denser and denser. But I definitely felt like, I don't know, as it began, I felt like I was being encapsulated in this world building and storytelling. A little bit of background probably definitely helps, but...

Like it's definitely not a narrative. It's not like a novel, but it reads surprisingly well to me. I was like, oh boy, this is going to be rough. And then I opened up and was like, this is fine.

This is just a fairy tale. It's fine. I also maybe biased because I've been reading like a lot of Greek history lately and some of it was rough, rough as heck. I was like, oh good, we're not having like major digressions. Everything is staying pretty much on top and we're okay here.

That's so funny. So yeah, I loved it. So I feel like, I don't know, we haven't done this before, but maybe I have a few comments and maybe we can just go through and rough chronological. So my first comment is on the imperishable flame, unless you have anything before that. Let's start there. Yes. Okay.

So first off, we've kind of covered a little bit of what happens in like one and two when we discussed the creation and the great singing and all of this.

Yes. It was fun to hear it in Tolkien's own words. I loved that.

Yeah. And some of the quotes that stood out to me, some of them just stood out because of the turn of the phrase. Just like, just the way he wrote.

So I really enjoyed this. It's a comment on Melkor and it says, he had gone often alone into the void places, seeking the imperishable flame for desire grew hot within him to bring into being things of his own. And it seemed to him that Alu Vitar took no thought for the void and he was impatient of its emptiness. Yet he found not the fire for it is with Alu Vitar. So there's like a couple things I really liked here. First off, imperishable flame, 10 out of 10. Awesome phrase.

So dead. I don't know why I haven't seen that more in fantasy. Like, why is that not what everything is called? And then like, this is relatively early on in the first chapter. And I feel like they start going really hard with all this like, I mean, the whole thing is fairly religious feeling.

But this one hit me pretty hard. I was like, cool, here is Satan. Here is the sin of impatience. I feel like I can see this.

Yeah. And I really feel like it comes there's another couple places where it comes out, but Tolter does treat impatience almost as like, this is a synod against God, because Al Le kind of struggles with this too, right? When we see him treating

the doors later on, where he says, I was impatient. Yeah, but it's exactly that phrase. I was impatient. And I'm like, you're sinning just like Melkor. Watch out. That's so interesting, that comparison though.

So yeah, that was fun for me to see. It's a very specific light. And he already mentions like Al Le and Melkor being very similar. Like, he already compares them and then for them to like, taste that, that very particular kind of sin, because I never would have thought, oh yes, one of the great deadly sins in patience.

Yeah. That's not a theme that would have like, I wouldn't have written that. But obviously, like it hits deep for Tolter, because that's how he wrote it, right? That's so interesting. So that was something I really liked. And we don't have to necessarily do these in exact order. All of my comments are like very standalone. So do you want to do one?

No, yes, of course. And I feel like we can kind of meander if there's anything related, just kind of go with the go with the flow. But something that you said, so talking about Melkor, I thought this stood out to me. This is also in the first chapter. And it says, and in the darkness, Melkor dwelt and still often walked abroad in many shapes of power and fear. And he wielded cold and fire from the tops of the mountains to the deep furnaces that are beneath them. And whatsoever was cruel, or violent, or deadly in those days is laid to his charge.

And I thought that was so interesting. Because I think in a previous episode, we'd kind of talked about like, why does everything he touch kind of turn into this? I don't know.

I don't know. Like they're always associated with kind of like this darker evil, like he never creates something beautiful, even though he craves beauty, he sees the similar millions, he sees other things. But I just thought that was so interesting that they specifically called that out that he would mainly just take shapes of power and fear. And then they said anything that was cruel, or violent, or deadly was laid at his charge was kind of like, because I think it's really interesting that he had such control over those particular elements.

Yeah. Like the cold and the fire. And it's called out later when a Louvitar is talking to I think to Ulmo and he says like, you know, when Melkor was doing his business trying to freeze all your water and it didn't work. I thought that was really interesting. But it also like, I mean, personally, yeah, of course, coldness is from the devil. I hate the cold.

Well, it's funny because it reminds me of like, you're saying like the internal what did they, what did you call it again? The flame?

The imperishable flame? Yes, the imperishable flame. Well, that's interesting to talk about that in the context of Melkor having power over fire.

He wielded cold and fire.

I wonder if that was part of him being like, I was not able to train the copper. The imperishable flame, but I want something similar. Yeah.

You know, something else that it reminds me of. Okay. It reminds me of the Balrog. And do you remember how Gandalf, when he first encounters him, it's this fiery creature. And then he talks about fighting him, you know, from the dark, the darkest lowest spot to the highest coldest pinnacle of the mountain. Right. Yeah.

And that's the comparison. Yeah, that's kind of the comparison that I'm getting here, like from the deepest, darkest fiery pits all the way to the coldest mountain tops.

And I think it also kind of expresses an idea of the power of Melkor being very broad, right? Because we think of flame and cold as being opposites. So if he has control over those opposites, how powerful is he in between? So maybe he's like, maybe it's a double peak, like you did here and here and in between, he's just mediocre.

Almost like he's strong. Yeah, maybe not. Maybe he was just so powerful. He had so much control over everything. He could control those two extremes, too. Because it made for a point of saying, like, in the beginning, when he was still mostly good, he was one of the ones that had the ability, like he had learned everyone else's dish just a little bit. Like he was the one that had like the most breadth. I thought it was very interesting. Which is wild.

Okay, so this is actually something I don't know perfectly. I'm going to see if I can, I thought I had a page pulled up, but I'm curious if your thoughts, I thought it was so interesting when they mentioned all these different types of elves, like they were saying, I think that someone specifically liked the Noldor and someone else specifically liked this other section of elves for their creativity.

But the Valor favored different ones. Yeah, that they favored different groups. And I haven't dug into that that much, but I'm curious how that just shaped

the history and like Galadriel and Legolas and are they from different backgrounds?

Right. Yeah. So I recognize the Noldor vaguely.

I recognize the name. I don't have any context for it. That's the one that had the Somalrylians. That's the group. Yeah. So I recognize that, but only because we've talked about it in that context.

I don't know, like, where exactly what you said, like, from which of these clans is Galadriel? I don't like to know that. That's a feature thing to look up.

Yeah, they had such specific preferences and like talked about that in the very beginning that there was that separation. Because for the longest time, you're just like elves. Elves are the thing and they're beautiful and they live a long, long, long time and have special magic. But it's interesting to see that just right away in the beginning that they're very distinct groups.

There's something else here that stood out to me. I'll just go on with one of mine. Yeah. So I like this one. This is Eluvatar speaking to Meltor when he's chastising him after the singing. He says, And thou, Meltor, shall see that no theme may be played that hath not its uttermost source in me, nor can any alter the music in my despite.

I did just feels very religious. Like, that the one of the questions that religion can answer is, how can it be if you have a good and loving God? How can evil exist in the world? Like, this is one of those questions. And it feels like it starts to approximate that. Like, there is evil in the world. But in the end, in the long term, in like, the eternities, all is turned to like Eluvatar's purpose. Yeah. So it doesn't like, it doesn't matter that Meltor was able to see some discordancy. It was turned eventually. I really like that.

I feel like that perfectly segues way into the end of chapter one, where it's talking about death and how that's different between elves and men. And we kind of covered this, but this goes into like that extra granular detail, you know what I mean?

Where it's like, I loved that one. Elves just seem to be tied to the earth and kind of as long as the earth is around, the elves are around. Men, they call like these guests or strangers, because they're going to die and their spirits are going to leave the earth. And so they know that, but they don't necessarily know what that means for either of them, right? Right.

And there's a really cool phrase that goes along there where it says, they are called guests or the strangers. Death is their fate, the gift of Eluvatar, which has time, where's even the power shall envy. And the way they capitalize the powers, it means the valor shall envy. So I think it was fascinating that I just, when I read the paragraph before where it's like, and then Eluvatar gave two very special gifts to men.

I was like, that's exciting. Death. And maybe the other one, we'll discuss this, like, is it free will?

The other gift? It seems like they have more control over their fate. And it's implied that the elves being bound into the world are bound in their actions as well.

Because here, this is my note from just before. It says, therefore, Eluvatar willed that the hearts of men should seep beyond the world and should find no rest therein. So this is kind of like, I take that to be like the ambition of their spirits almost.

But maybe that's also part of the death thing. But they should have a virtue to shape their life amidst the powers and chances of the world beyond the music of the Einer, which is as fate to all things else. So like, I interpreted that as like the music of the Einer, that vision that's shown in the beginning, where all the valor see it and they're like, cool, we've got like, this is our blueprint, we're now going to go make the world according to this vision. And the vision ends, right?

It ends before they can see the end of all things. So I thought it was really interesting that the Diff's of men are death and free will. I did very religious like free will is a big big deal. Death as a gift is not all to me kind of. Yeah, I feel like that's very unique.

But I really liked it. I love that that is what makes the elves feel alien, the fact that they cannot die in the way humans can. And I love the implication that, you know, as you get older, as an elf, you kind of wish you could.

And it was so interesting because kind of combining those two things, it's also makes sense to me that because the elves are like tied to the earth more, like they're like, we're here as long as this earth is here, you get the sense they have that extra care and consideration and almost like virtue respecting the earth.

A different mindset on it for sure. A different mindset and kind of like what you're saying, like the ambition of men is almost outside of the earth. Like you don't always see men having that consideration for the future and for the current existence. And it just comes, I think it also comes down to the fact that because they die and their lifespan is so much shorter, when they are thinking long term, I mean, it's 70 years, 200 maybe if you're thinking about your grandchildren, right?

But it's so much harder for them to plan for the future when they don't have the lifespan of an elf. It's been 2000 years. I can now plan for the next 2000. It's interesting to think about those timelines changing for them. And I really like that.

And it's fascinating that he decides to put all of those types of beings in one story. Because I remember. And to call them out as beings so different. Yeah. And having some conflict and you see the pros of different groups of people because you think sometimes the elves are hesitant to get engaged or involved because they've seen so much and they're like, but for the men, it's very real and very potent and powerful. So yeah, I love that. I saw something.

I think this is on Instagram. There was like a little clip of Tolkien when he's older and they said, Oh, what are like the theme of your, what's the theme of your writing? And he said death, like the theme of my writing is death. And I thought that was so fascinating because it's such a story of hope and coziness and power of good over evil and all of those things. But he was really saying like death and what that means to different people and how they're willing to fight for things in their life. And yeah, it's fascinating. Yeah.

I have another small note kind of based off the free will and death. So I think it's really interesting that we're given the perspective in Tolkien that men are kind of like these strange things. You know, we're almost, we're almost assigned the perspective of the elves. Like the elves are thinking everything right. I don't know, maybe that's just like my, like my impression of how it's like characterized, but it feels like men are this strange thing, right? And there's a little note here that says, although Melkor has ever feared and hated them, even those that served him, referring to men. Yeah.

I was like really surprised by that. Melkor, this very powerful being, is afraid of men, even the ones that serve him. And I think that just comes down to this perspective, like these men being like so unpredictable, so unpredictable.

Yeah. Yeah. And that being something because everything else in the world is so long lived to have this tiny short lived creature that could have power, right? Yeah. That could. Yeah.

Exactly. And so I thought that was very interesting. I was like, how, how is Melkor going to fear men? And that was the only thing that made sense to me. It's like, okay, it's because they're unpredictable, because they have these two strange discs that nobody else has.

And it was a very interesting way to make men and humanity, I guess, kind of have like a power and a might of their own and a place where they are severely underpowered.

I know. And it's been prepared to be like, no, you are special men here.

You did to die.

But I do love your point because that brings me to this other sentence. There were so many good sentences and I wasn't that long, which is impressive. But it says, but Melkor has cast his shadow upon it, talking about, I think, like death and confounded it with darkness and brought forth evil out of good and fear out of hope. And that's the thing that I think he's wielding. When you say like he's scared of men and their unpredictable unpredictableness is he's changing this aspect or not changing, but imbuing this aspect of their existence with this fear and this darkness. And I wonder if Tolkien felt like we as humanity have that perspective on death as well.

Yeah, I kind of thought it as Melkor corrupting the nature of the gift or like the attitude of the recipient, right? So like in an ideal world, the gift of a Louvatar would be like, this is awesome. I the human did to die and I'm excited about it. This is going to be a great thing for me. Note because there's the dream of heaven, essentially. There's like, where am I going next? Right.

I have a freedom. I have a life after this. Yeah. Yeah.

And so for the way I interpreted that was Melkor is the one who has passed this shadow on it has made people afraid of death had made people do I feel like maybe this is other fantasy, but there are a lot of fantasies where avoidance of death is the major motivation of insert villain here. They're so afraid to die.

They'll do anything to avoid it. Yeah. And that feels like what Melkor is trying to do here.

He's like, you will die. This is a way that I can motivate them. I can make them afraid of this gift. Yeah. In order to motivate them to do scenes for me. So yeah, it's very interesting.

I agree. And I'm thinking about because when he gives or I guess not Melkor, but Soran down the road when he gives out the nine rings to the Kings of Men, he talks about or at least Galadriel in the movies voice talks about because men, you know, above all thing, you know, want want power and want all of these components. But something else I thought about was was avoidance of death because you think of the ring race and however thin I think Bilbo says like his life felt like butter spread over too much bread like however, perfect, perfect metaphor.

Exactly. However thin they're feeling like they're still there even if it's in kind of a wretched state. So I wonder if that was also part of it. You wonder if that was part of the bargain part of the bargain. And maybe they were caught in it. Maybe it's like, oh, we between ring race, we are tricked into it. But maybe not.

But maybe not. Maybe they were willing to exchange it. Yeah. Yeah, I'll be excited to learn more about that one. There was a little thing in here that stood out to me because I was like, well, I've never heard these terms before. I don't remember who's speaking. I think it's a Louvitar. But he says, behold, I love the earth which shall be a mansion for the Quendi and the Atani. And I'm like, what the heck are these?

Quendi is Elv Atani is man. And I just love that. Like, there's so many names.

Of course, they're going to use their own language to describe these scenes. So many names. Yeah, it's great.

Oh my goodness. And I loved I was just looking at we talked about man way and they added detail about like his his scepter of sapphire. And then we actually talked about the queen of the Valar. But we had a different name for her when we went over her. But in here it was like incendering tongue Elboreth, which I thought what a pretty name it sounds almost like a different Elizabeth.

Well, we should have added that to the baby name. We should have added it. He told him. Yes.

Elby. Oh, that's cute. But yeah, yeah, so much good stuff. Do you want to move on to chapter two or any other details from chapter one?

I have a few things from chapter one. Let me just check and make sure there's something of interest here. Oh, there were a couple things. Yeah, we'll just speed run this. Keep going.

Yeah. First off, I don't know if this was just the way I read it. But at some point in the very near beginning, he says, a real Elvoreth is giving to them site where before was only hearing. I thought that was very interesting. The implication that they had only heard they had no site and maybe there was nothing to see because nothing else was created. The void. I got the impression. I got the impression he was like, and now you get to see. Here's a new sense for you.

That means so much more meaning to them singing the world into creation. If that was their only sense.

Yes, to me it did. And I also thought it was really interesting that they could all know each other, but they would have known each other by their voices and by the music.

So I thought that was really cool. I'll just breeze through some of these. So he calls out the children of the Lovetar or Elves and Men, the firstborn and the followers. Such an interesting phrase. Yeah. Because like, how do you feel about being a follower when they're a firstborn? Like it really feels like you're being demoted. But then the men are the one who did these special strange gifts that everyone is envious of.

And the Elves do remember like, Melkor down the road and the history basically says, I know something you don't to the Elves living in with the Valar.

And he's like, you're not going to be the only ones, right? Yeah. It's you. I mean, I wouldn't know I'm a middle child, but it makes you wonder how the oldest child really feels. There's some interesting stuff about Melkor and like how he is successful in lying to everyone plus himself. Because it says, you know, when Arda, when that first vision comes and the world is revealed and everyone is so hyped, they're like, yes, finally a theme is this.

We're so excited. It says, Melkor feigned even to himself at first that he desired to go thither and order all the things for the good of the children of Elutar. I think it's really interesting because it shows like, it shows like this corruption arc, this slow decay for him. And maybe it's not very slow, maybe it took place very

quickly, but like I feel like when you read scripture, it's like, you'd see something there. Yeah. And I felt like when you read scripture, like it's very obvious. Like here's Satan, here's Lucifer, he's doing bad, bad scenes from the beginning. Like we don't get this kind of arc for Lucifer.

But here it's like, he lied even to himself that he wanted to do good things. Wow. Yeah, I loved that. This little bit here is just like a word choice that I enjoyed.

It's umo, I think talking to you says, I love umo. Truly water is become now fairer than my heart imagined. Neither had my secret thought conceived the snowflake, nor in all my music was contained the falling of the rain. Oh, that's so sweet. Yeah, I just felt like those were like very poetic, all about the natural beauty of the earth.

And I'm like, there's something that totemnet sells in and it is making the natural beauty of the earth special. Yeah. And I really enjoyed like that whole description.

I love that. And where I'm trying to see it where there was more about umo, but I loved, we talked about, I think when we were chatting about the Valar, he seems kind of like that hermit uncle to me, you know, the one that doesn't always show up.

That is kind of cool. And yeah, I just loved his descriptions because it was like, even when Melkor was kind of in middle earth, corrupting things, you get the impression the water was always there and almost always there.

Yeah, and Melkor could not handle the water. He hated the sea because he couldn't like control it. I thought that was very interesting.

Yes. And he was, he was present through the water. And I thought that was so interesting. I loved like the idea of the music running through the water, like sorrowful and joyful.

And that the tellery, I think one of the Elvish clans learned their music from Uomo and how to make it beautiful and sorrowful at the same time. That sounds amazing to me.

Yeah, I love it. And music for me. So good. So good. Every music I love is in some minor T. So I'm like 10 out of 10.

You're like, yes, oh, well, that's the vibe. Yeah, rock it. Play it louder.

There's another little line here about Melkor, kind of like on his corruption arc. And it's basically describing, I think it was describing Manway and how awesome he is. And then it says, that loser Melkor over there, he spent his spirit and envy and hate until last he made nothing safe and mockery of the thought of others and all their works he destroyed, if he could. So it's really interesting to me that the way Tolton perceives this trajectory starting is like impatience, impatience with the will of God, impatience with like the timeline of God. Like there is like this this little tiny, tiny seed and personally, I can be very impatient. And so I'm like, oh crap. It is a very tiny seed and it's in all of us. But when it comes to its full fruition, like when you really start dipping your toe into evil, I think it's really interesting that he portrays evil as this inability to be original, to create a new, to create a fresh. Envy of others. Yeah. So like this envy is what ruins your originality.

You're unable because I don't know. I feel like this happens to people in real life where like you get this comparisonitis and you just can't you can't make your own choices without comparing to other people or what other milestones other people might have. So obviously this is to be extreme. And it just seemed really interesting that at that point he had no more the ability to make original things. He could only corrupt.

You know, it's so interesting. Yeah. So he he he kind of lost his originality and pure intent of thought to build something new and beautiful.

He lost power. He lost a true powerful ability and now he can't do it. Obviously he has different powers now. He can corrupt out the wazoo. But it's like he lost a real still and it doesn't seem like you can get it back.

Wow, that's wild. And that's what I think is so interesting. Like I wonder if like the cruel or the violent or the deadly is because he's like, I can't make this more beautiful. I can only take it in one direction. And that's sad to me that he like craves beauty and love.

But can never touch it. Can never really obtain it. Whenever he touches it, he only corrupts it. Like, yeah, it's interesting. I like it. They talk about Nienna a little bit. And I love her the whole time. I know, right? The I think we had discussed there like her being like, I can't remember the phrase you had used before.

I don't know if it was this one. But the phrase in here is acquainted with grief. And I'm like, cool, I know my Psalms or wherever that is in the Bible. And when they talk about Christ, and it's he's a man of sorrows acquainted with grief. I just think it's a really interesting phrase. And I've got to look more into like the etymology of like where it comes from because I don't know. Because when I think of the word acquainted, I'm like, I don't know, it's just not one that I would naturally pair with grief. So I think it's a really interesting thing that he took. Yeah, I love Nienna 10 out of 10. When Melchor attacks and it's on Tultus' wedding night.

Oh my gosh. I feel so bad for him.

He's like, you came and I had to leave.

You know he planned that. He's like, okay, it's like, I'm going to run the event. All my little spies tell me that his wedding night is now. Obviously, this is to attempt attack, but like logistically to type. But also I would hear sweet, sweet revenge. Oh my gosh, that's so brutal.

You're right. The drama. It was brutal. Oh my gosh. That's hilarious. Okay. Yeah. Oh, so Nienna, sorry, one quick thing on that. And then we can move on to other points.

But so what I thought was so sweet and we love Nienna, we love her thoughtfulness. But so this is after they, you know, things have been kind of destroyed. The Valar is moving to Valinor. And Yovanna is kind of hollowing it. They say she's having green grass and she has this song of power.

And they're rebuilding. But Nienna thought in silence and watered the mound with tears. And I thought, first of all, it's so interesting to me that there's no being really that was being hurt by all of this destruction, like the elves aren't there, the men aren't there.

She was just mourning the earth and also that she's taking that time to kind of appreciate, I don't know, it seems like she's taking that sorrow and she's like watering the earth, doing something almost healthy with her sorrow and her reflection. Anyways, I thought it was, I thought it was really powerful.

I don't know if it's implied or not, but is that the same bit of earth that Yovanna then grows the two trees in? I think it might be.

Yeah, because it says there is the mound that came forth, two slender shoots.

Yeah, so I think she watered the ground almost in preparation for those trees.

Yeah, and it makes me just think of the power of grief and rebuilding. And the healthiness of that, I think.

Anyways, I don't know. Here on this podcast, we love ourselves a good cry.

Honestly, very hip-hopic though I never cry. Oh my goodness, I love a good cry every once in a while. It does feel like letting out, letting out all of that inward worry or pressure. So I do work that sentence. That's funny.

I want to ask a question about a tomb, no. So it says that when Melka comes back, he makes a stronghold. Where the heck is this? I mean, maybe we'll learn more, but is it in Middle Earth today? Is it Mordor? Is that land still horrible and start like, do we know? It's in the far north.

The far north, so not Mordor. No, not Mordor. So they have Valinor, which is kind of off to the west, on its own, with a special access ability to get there.

And then you have... No, she went to the left. And blessed by the Valinor only. And then you have Middle Earth, and then a tomb, no, is high in the north. And I do think that part of the land was kind of scarred, and so people moved down south.

Okay, interesting. Actually, yeah, I needed to look up a map. In rings of power, do you remember Galadriel was like the hot bopping around in an icy... That first episode when she's off on her little revenge quest? Yeah, the icy place. Where was that? Is this supposed to be a tomb, no?

But what was Seen as Lord of the Rings, Rings of Power, but what was that location in Icy Place in first episode? I'm wondering if that was what that was supposed to represent. That's interesting.

It was totally lost on me at the time. Also, to not love that TV show.

Are these the fortress in the first one? Okay, so not quite. It's Durnost, and it sounds like they invented it. Is it not real? Anyways, sorry. Could go down a hole there. That was not true.

I think that's a completely fair question. When they were describing, when they're describing all the things when Meltore attacks and all the ruin, like the corruption that happens, one line stood out to me, I thought was hilarious. Quote, and fends were made, raking and poisonous, the breeding place of flies. I just felt that in my soul, so deep, cause like that hiking trip in Scotland, where it's like literally only fends, and every step was a new nightmare every time. Oh my gosh. Yeah, fends are the devil's creation. It was, I felt that so hard.

I love that, cause that just screams, like this was written by a British author.

Yes, yes, I was like, this man knows, he understands. He knows. I loved it. I mean, cut it any time you want. I'm just reading down my list. I have another couple of really fun ones.

So this one is good. It says, this is like after Meltore attacks, and like everything is going to ruin this flame everywhere I guess because of the lamps falling. Yeah. I mean, it says, in that guarded land, the Valor gathered great stores of light. So they've like gone off to the island and they're making safe, right? They gathered great stores of light and all the pharistines that were saved from the ruin. And I just loved the idea that light was just a resource that they could forge. They're just out there, pluck the light in, put it in their basket, like, oh, we'll meet this later when we put in some trees. We're like, we just gotta pick it up, like an apple on the orchard.

Yeah, and, but I love the cashmills of it. It's like, they gathered light, no explanation, no need to like, you know, go into light at 20 page. This is our hard fantasy understanding of how this magic system works. It's just like, they're powerful beings. They live on a different plane than us.

Resources like light, they should just pick them up. Yeah. It really made the Valor feel to me like, oh yeah, these are like gods. These are gods. They can do anything. They do this thing, it's all casual. So yeah, but I just love the idea of like, and I picked up 100 light bars today. We're really restocking, we'll have a beam soon.

Well, you know, you bring up a really interesting point about like detail in Tolkien because he has, I mean, this book, so many other notes. He is a mastermind of world building, but yet his world building type isn't the level of detail that I think a lot of other fantasy series have kind of dug into. Like he doesn't explain everything. He leaves a lot to kind of the imagination or just a very vague, beautiful sentence.

And I don't have perfect proof of this. I'll have to do some research into this, but I feel like that ties into a lot of the longevity of the series. The fact that things are not over explained. The fact that people, there's so much wonder. It's like, oh, I wonder how that happened.

Yeah, we can talk about it in question. Yeah, when you have places where you can have theories and theories are valid and you just don't know which one is right. I mean, maybe not everyone thinks about the Midas system all the time. I don't personally. I know there are a lot of fantasy people who do. Some people care really, really a lot about this, but I just, that room for wonder, that room for exploration, that room where it's not fully explained, we just have, there's just a little bit left for the reader to think about and ponder. And I feel like that really ties into like a good series that can hold you for a lot more than just one read. Yeah, you're so right. And yeah, I think being in the Someralian, it just perfectly illustrates that, right? Where he adds this beautiful detail, but at the same time you're still walking through and you're like, wow, that's a beautiful thought. I wonder how that works. Or, oh, so interesting. I would love to know more detail behind the course thought process.

He's rude and doesn't tell you things. He also throws it, I want to call this foreshadowing, but it's not, it's like just telling you, there's no foreshadowing about it, about the trees. So once Yovanna starts growing the trees, then he says, and about their fate, all the tales of the elder days are woven. Yeah.

And now, because you've given me the backer, right? The briefing on, this is what happened. They become the Somerals and every single battle since has been about this. So I know that's true, but it's just a casual little statement here. And literally everything else of note that

has ever happened has been about these two trees.

Oh my God, is he right? And it's so subtle. So I thought that was a cute call out. So subtle.

Oh my goodness, there's so much good stuff here. Wow. Okay. I had some thoughts on chapter two.

All right, I have one last thought on chapter one. Okay, sorry, sorry, go ahead. I'm the worst, I was like really into chapter one. No, I love it, I love it, keep going. Last thought, so the names for the trees were interesting to me. Oh yeah. They roll off the tongue. So it's Tel Purion and it's Lorelyn.

So pretty. What was interesting was there feels like sort of a reversal going on here. So it says that Tel Purion, the male tree, I feel like he likened it to the moon where he says like Tel Purion has his gentle silver light. I mean the Lorelyn, the female tree is described as blazing and golden like the sun. I had that was really interesting because we consider the moon to be female and soul the sun to be male. Oh like a moon, yeah, yeah, yeah, I could see that. And I just, I'm trying to think now, and I didn't look this up, I probably should have, but are there like cultures or religions that consider the moon male? And I don't believe there are because the moon aligns pretty well with the menstrual cycle. And so it's always kind of been associated with the women. And I don't have proof of that, but I suspect strongly that that is the case. So I thought it was really interesting and obviously a deliberate choice to kind of reverse that order. I don't know what it means. I don't know what he's didding at, but I thought it was interesting.

Well, because I remember like Galadriel's hair, there's a reference to her hair being like one of the trees. And I always thought like golden, yeah, like some kind of light from the trees being equivalent for her hair. And so that's so fascinating.

But maybe the question is actually which tree? Which tree? Golden or silvery? Yeah, because they have a different color. That's interesting. Anyways, that was my last thought on chapter one. I just obviously had a lot of little things that stood out to me.

No, that's amazing. That's amazing. And now I'm looking over to see if I have anything else that I wanted to bring about. I love they went into a lot of detail on Manway and his blue, Raymond, the blue fire of his eyes.

I mean, chapter one really could have just been titled Why Manway is Awesome. Manway Fanboy Club.

Like, they really love to have some Manway. And Olmo, which we never really hear about Olmo after I feel like, okay, no, I think I'm good. They talked about a lot of the Valar. They're different processes. I'm good, I'm good. Okay.

I don't have very many on chapter two. Do you want to go?

Oh, okay. Well, I don't know. I just thought there is a lot of funny slash interesting things. So first of all, so you have chapter one, being this very broad, very like all encompassing, let's give you the background on almost every pivotal character in the creation. So you can see how we got to this point. And then chapter two, interesting to me, we're going on a deep dive on a couple who have very specific creation roles.

And it's almost like a personal story. Yeah, and I really enjoyed how it was like, this was the time, the subtitle could have been that time, All Way and Yovanna almost got divorced. Exactly. The Marital Stray. It's like a drama.

Very real. And obviously it has some very key creation components in it, right? We'll talk about All Way and the Dwarves and all of that good stuff. I love that story, but I just thought, what a fascinating next step for chapter two.

That is just like, this is what we're doing. Let's not continue the recipe. Let's just talk about it. Let's just talk about it. But like, it's fair. There's some good stuff here. Very good. The first thing that stood out to me was at the beginning when it says, for so greatly did All Way desire the coming of the children to have learners, to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfillment of the designs of a Louvitar. I just loved that. That motivation is so touching. He's like, I just need somebody to teach. He's got good dad vibes, you know?

Yeah, he does. Well, and we talked about the devastation that almost all of his Maya are his students, including Soram.

It's true. It's true. And Soramon, I think, is put up by us. We've got to talk about his bad luck with teaching. He has bad students. And maybe part of it is just like his openness and willingness to teach anyone. Because he loves so much. Exactly. He loves teaching for the act of teaching.

And I think that's really commendable. He is not discriminating. Maybe he should be more discriminating.

He really should be. But it was a very humanizing theme that this was his motivation. And it just felt very touching.

Yeah. And a very different vibe than the desire to create that milk or a steam is to have, which is this very ownership heavy.

I don't know. I'm going to create something that belongs to me, that obeys me. I can subsume the will of it. Yeah, very power hungry. Very good. All I wanted to create was just a little factory of people creating things. Yeah.

OK. And so I love the doors in Lord of the Rings. I feel like we have Gimli in the Hobbit. We have that full spectrum of doors there from funny to very regal.

We have Thorne Oakenchield. What do we think about the doors being made by Alway? They have such a knack for creation, which really reminds me of him. And then I love that it went into extra detail behind the doors by saying he made them extra hearty because he knew that the other children had not come yet and they needed to be strong.

And they need to resist mouth. Well, that was my net. Yes. This is really interesting that they are strong and unyielding. And obviously the way it's phrased is like, they I think that phrase is something like, the doors are now as they ever were.

Like they're still strong and unyielding. This is there. But like it feels like they're commenting on the personality. And that really does get into like the whole Dwarvish. It feels Dwarvish.

It feels very Dwarvish. But I had a question there because I'm like, OK, so this was Alway's best attempt. He was trying to make them resist mouth door. Was he successful? Or is there a race of doors out there that are just like completely corrupted and evil? I don't know the answer to that.

I also made me it also made me really curious. I'm like, OK, so those doors, those seven doors that Sauron gave the rings to, what happened to them? I don't know the answer to that. I have no idea. A little bit of detail.

Unless you told me and I forgot. The full story. No, you're good. You're good. I think I listened to this on a YouTube video. I read this somewhere. But it is really interesting because, so Sauron gives the rings to I think seven dwarf kings. And it was said that the dwarves were stronger at resisting control than other brands of children. I guess we could say the elves or the humans.

The humans being the easiest to control. And so they were stubborn. And so the rings didn't necessarily work in the way that Sauron was anticipating. And instead, a lot of their negative feedback that they were getting from these rings that were supposed to be giving them power was kind of the offset of greed. So they were getting this kind of like power hungry, greedy sensation that was coming out of them because of this extra boost from the rings given by Sauron.

So it was almost it was aggravating natural inclination.

Natural. As opposed to turning them away from their tendencies. Yes. And that's what I think is interesting too, because they were created by a creator. And how fascinating that their bad tendency is to hyper fixate on their creation, right? Their mining of gold and jewels and everything that they love to create.

And that's their hyper fixation. But because of that, it was said that a lot of their greed brought woe to all those seven kingdoms. So we had dragons coming in and killing the people and taking over the hordes.

We had other kingdoms coming in trying to conquer. One of those rean bearers, but not necessarily because Sauron was causing them to do things according to his own purpose.

It was difficult to wield them. Yeah. And it sounds more like chaos occurred because of this. Yeah. And maybe they were easier to wield actually because he knew their weakness. I don't know.

Yeah. So but we don't know like there's not necessarily like a secret race of dwarves that like are holy evil.

I don't think so.

OK. Because sometimes like infantasy and like dmd, there are some of these. And I wonder if that, I wonder if it came from Tolton I just didn't know.

It sounded like they have their ups and downs where they're not the best to be with. But they also I don't think have a ton of maliciousness from what I've read. But OK. That made sense.

Very good. But that's what brought smog to Erebor, which is the beginning of the Hobbit is actually that king was one of the kings, I believe. It was Durand. With the ring of power.

What did he have a ring? His like granddad. I don't know. Maybe I'm getting maybe I'm slaughtering this. They use the same name all the time. So it's kind of hard. But one of the durans.

Yes. But I believe one of his predecessors was one of the seven kings that Soran gave a ring to. And that helped build up the wealth in Erebor. And that's eventually what brought smog to take over it. Very interesting.

So just a little bit later down in this chapter, Owl is now he's been discovered by a Louvitar in having done the scene. And he's like, he's not he's kind of like not excusing himself, but he's explaining himself. And he says, and in my impatience, I've fallen into falling. We kind of mentioned this before, like this. Impatience.

Impatience has brought up quite a bit. And I was like, oh, Owl, no, don't do it. This is how they got Melkor. It made me nervous. So I thought that was funny. Where are you going with this?

Yeah. I thought it was so interesting how much he talked about father to children components. In the context of Owl-e? Or in the context of Owl-e to a Louvitar and also him to his dwarves. So he talks about like, I thought this was so sweet. And so it was sweet. And in my impatience, I've fallen into falling. Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee.

Yes. The child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without thought of Makri, but because he is the son of a father. But what shall I do now so that thou be not angry with me forever? As a child to his father, I offer to thee these things, the works of my hands, which thou has made, do with them what thou wilt. And I just think of like a little boy creating something and then bringing it to his dad and being like, here, you can have my creations. Like please don't destroy it.

Like I was doing it because I saw you do this. And it's to his father. Yes. So he's saying like, my desire has come from watching you. And I mean, how could a Louvitar not be like flattered?

Oh, sweet child, it's so precious.

Oh, it's so beautiful. I hope for sure he'd eat it on the fridge. I'm not exactly. I'm going to save it forever.

That's an interesting point. I like that. I will be very interested to see other themes of fatherhood because I'm thinking like just my rough take on. I can't think of anything else right now off the top of my head, like in the main Lord of the Rings, right? Is there like a strong theme of fatherhood there? I don't feel like there is.

It's like there are other things. I feel like there's a strong theme of descent, like who you're descended from and the weight

of your father's heritage bearing on you. And then there's the Dormir and Denisor and Aragorn. And that's true. Even like the dwarves, like their their heritage of being. So it's on the level of like ancestors. How your ancestors have either set you up to win or fail and how your understanding of their expectations affects you.

Yeah, yeah, I see that.

Okay, I'll think it's more about that.

Oh, okay. I have another thing here actually. If we can continue on for a moment. Okay. And so he gives a speech, which I just think is so heart wrenching of being like, I'm so sorry. I really wanted to do this because I saw you doing this. Like please take my work as a gift. And then he says, but you know, should I not rather do I do you want me to destroy this basically? And all I took takes up his great hammer to smite the doors and he weeps and Louvatar has compassion on him and he looks down and the dwarves are like speaking and bow down and beg for mercy and Louvatar says, see, look, I actually gave them their own voices and their own autonomy. And oh my gosh, this reminded me so strongly of Abraham and Isaac story where

kind of God comes down and he's like, I've given you this gift. Like what have you done? And I'll is like, I just want to do things to please you.

I want to make sure that you feel good about what I've been doing. The willingness to sacrifice to destroy this. Yes, I'm willing to destroy this even though this was my heart's desire, right? And Abraham and Isaac, it was his heart's desire to have children and he knew that God promised him descendants. And in this one, he's like, you've given me this desire to create. I've know you. I know that I've promised. I've used it well. But I'm willing to destroy it.

I'm willing to destroy it. And I think that's a key difference between him and Melkor here too, where it's like, I care about you and the power that in our relationship and the power you've given me to create more than I care about creating something on my own and having that glory. And so kind of the same deal at the last minute Louvatar is like, no, like, don't sacrifice this. I can make this good, right?

Yeah. And he does. And I really like the way he calls it.

He says somewhere he's like, an often stress shall arise between thine and mine, the children of my adoption and the children of my choice. Love that. Love that a lot. And that sounded, oh my gosh.

That sounded so much to me. Maybe adoption is just a very powerful term for me, but like, I think about it in Roman terms where it's like, once you're adopted, that's it. You're now that guy's son. Yeah. And I just love that. He's like, I've adopted them. They're mine now. Let's go. Yeah.

Yeah. And it reminds me too of he was saying sometimes enmity that reminds me in the Bible when God's kind of like, OK, Eve, you're going to have children and the serpent's going to be able to kind of like go after their heel, but you're going to be able to like crush the serpent. You're going to be able to crush his head. Yeah. Yeah. I was getting senses of like, there's going to be a little bit of tension here.

Yeah. I thought that was cool. There's a random theme. There's a random line here that I was like, whoa, this is hinting at something deeper. I'm not sure if I just misread it. So here it's the line.

It says, they say also that the seven fathers of the doors, so those original seven that Owl it creates, return to live it in in their own kin and to bear once more their ancient names. Yeah. Is this reincarnation? I feel like I have never heard of this.

Oh, OK. I don't know all of the details about this, but we should look into that because I think there's the belief maybe that some of the old ancestors are going to come back to life. Maybe I'm wrong, but that's why the Durans, do you remember where they're saying that's confusing? Yeah. Every king of this one kingdom, they call Durans. So they have their own name, but then when they're crowned, they're like, during the fourth, during the fifth, during the sixth. Right. After this king. And I don't know if they really think that that person becomes like the spirit of their ancestors.

Or maybe it's, yeah. Well, maybe it's just them trying to fulfill essentially a prophecy, right? Yeah. Like how every single person was named Mary for

millennia and millennia because of the prophecy that Mary would be the mother of Jesus. So everybody was named Mary. She was like, what if it's my kid? Let's just name her Mary.

What if it's my Duran? Yeah. You know, so I think that's really interesting that obviously there's like a custom of having like your teen, your teenly name. I think they do this in England, right? I could be wrong where it's like, you have a normal name and then you take on your coronation name.

But yeah. So I was like very intrigued by that. We'll have to do a little bit more Latin into that because the way it was phrased that they do live in their, live it in, in their own tin. That sounded me like reincarnation. I thought that was pretty sick.

Actually, I did think it might be something. But when did he pull that card out, you know? I think there's something there. Yeah. Some kind of belief there. I have to dig into that more, but that is so intriguing. I thought it was funny that they were saying that line is most friendly to the elves and whose mansions are at Casa Doom. And that made me laugh because I was thinking of Gimli and I'm like, I don't know how, especially friendly. You're not necessarily calling this. That's the friendliest. That's a fair point. That's funny.

I have one last one. Yeah, go ahead. And it's at the very end of the book. So if you have any before that.

Oh, I have, I have a couple. Let's do two of those first. I have a couple. So, okay, we've talked about this with Yomana. I think it's so intriguing that these two are a couple, right? Because we have this one person who's like... They're so not alike. You have this, or maybe they counterbalance each other well, but you have this person that's, I get the, like a Smith. You know what I mean? Like fire, metal, stone, earth, you know, like hefty creations. And then you have this person that's like green and everything.

What would this be like in real life? Like your most autistic engineer plus like a botanist. Like what is this?

I don't know, but they have like such different creative outlets. Right? Like just completely, not completely opposite because they both love to create, but very, very different. And I love how Yomana, like it's so funny because she seems soft. Like she cares for green things. She cares for growing things, but she is stubborn. Like she was like...

And she's a doer. Heck no. Yeah, she's a doer. She hears about the doors and she's like, that's not gonna work for me. I'm gonna go face this.

Yeah, yeah. And I love that she's like, I'm getting an audience with Manway. I'm gonna talk to someone about this. Like she's... She's gonna complain to the manager.

Not just gonna sit down. Yeah, exactly. She's like, I'm not just gonna sit down on this. And then I love how... So Manway is kind of talking to her. It does feel very like, okay, well, what are you hoping to get from this conversation? Can you imagine the therapy that Manway has to give to everyone? I hope it's not just him, but it really does kind of feel like he's the marriage counselor here.

He does feel like a manager of like a complex company and everyone has such like the office almost. Like everyone has such unique personalities and he's probably like, oh my gosh, they're driving me crazy. Yes.

I wish Milk would come back and unite as it did.

They're driving me crazy. Yeah. And so he's like... But then I love you about it. He's like, all have their worth. Kind of like, how can I pick? But then she's like, you know, thinking through and she, you know, among these I hold trees dear because they're long and growing, but swift to fell. And I thought that was so intriguing that she was like, this is my risk point. Right.

This is the way I'm most concerned about. And I think she identified it very well. Yeah. It takes a long time to grow. It's very quick to use up and people want to use it up.

It's not wood in it. I also really liked the way you said that because I got that vibe all of a sudden of, what's that mean where it's like, oh yeah, I totally don't have any favorite children. Oh yeah, yeah. It's you by a lot. I know, I know.

It's trees by a lot. I'll have their word. Like how could I pick? But if I had to. Yes, yes. Oh. And then, oh, what did she say at the end of it? It's like, so I see in my thought, would that the trees might speak on behalf of all things that have roots.

And I love it's not just soft. She's like, speak on their behalf. She says, and punish those that round them. Like she's got a little bit of vengeance going on. She is so vengeful. And I love, Manway is like that kind of manager who's trying to say neutral. He's like, this is a strange thought.

I loved his line there. He's like, yeah. Yeah. Okay. She could wrap that. Oh my gosh. Can you imagine this? She's like, and then, and there's like a light in her eyes and she's like, and then imagine if the trees could punish people. And he's like, yeah. He's like, that's a thought.

That's a something. But I do enjoy that later, you know, right after Manway says this is a strange thought, and he's getting ready to work his way up into a dismissal of this audience, that she actually has some strong backing. She's like, no, do you remember in the vision? There was this one aspect. And then it wasn't clear to me if Manway sees the vision anew or if he's just remembering it better. But obviously, depending on the different things that they were interested in, they would have all perceived different parts of that vision with more or less detail. And so for her, she noticed the little detail with the trees and the music and their singing or, yeah. Yeah. And I love that she called it out. So, no, I have backing for this.

Like this is real. You'd think I'm crazy, but I'm not. And that's it. It says, and Manway sat silent, right? Yes. Because he was kind of like, oh, I didn't.

You had to think about it. Like you had to think about it. Yeah, I love that. So Yvonne, her arc here is probably like, okay, I was so, I thought it was so sweet. The door of creation, always conversation with the Louvitar, kind of like that father to son component of where I want to be like you, but I want to do this in the right way. And then I just, I laugh and I love then the second part of the chapter is Yvonne to be like, hey, what now? He said, you hit this for me, but why?

And she's like, I'm going to fix this. But Yvonne, I think it's interesting. It doesn't really talk about her going, getting mad at Alway. And I wonder if she as a creator herself, like she kind of took a step back and maybe appreciated that this was something he cared about and loved as well. I don't know.

Yeah. And maybe it's also the attitude of, well, you created that thing. Don't worry. I can create a counter. Like she is very empowered. She has the power to create things. She doesn't have to wait around. Well, I mean, she obviously asked Madway, but it's not, there is a solution available to her and she's created enough to figure it out.

Yeah. So she didn't have to get too angry. She's like, this is a roadblock, but it's not going to like ruin everything. I can fix this. She doesn't say get rid of your dwarfs. Right.

She doesn't say that. Yeah. And I do think it mentions like some of the other children are yet to come and they'll probably have dominion over Arda as well. And so maybe it's just, she sees it's a broader issue, not just the dwarfs.

And I think there is that recognition of like, okay, when the children come, they have a greater, like I think they have a greater purpose. Yeah. And dominion is probably the right word to use there. Yeah. Given it's the word Tolkien uses and he only uses right words.

Yeah. And so I'm just reading through more of the story, but anything you wanted to add. Yeah.

So I loved the ending of this chapter. It made me laugh out loud. And it, because I did like from the beginning, it's like, and this is the episode on the marriage counseling and how it's going.

So at the end it says having not done all of those scenes, right? She's taught in Manway. She's gotten the ends and everything. So now Yvonne returned to Owl-e and he was in his Smithy, like usual. Yep.

Pory molten metal into a mold. Eru is bountiful. She said, now let thy children beware. And I just love the way she says this.

She's like, don't worry. I got this. We solved it. For there shall walk a power in the forest whose wrath they will arouse at their peril. And I just read like a long silence in there and the clad over hammer.

And the last thing that said is nonetheless, they will have need of wood said Owl-e and he went on with his Smith work. Oh my gosh. And that's it. I'm like, this is it. This is the marriage. This is what they both have to deal with.

It's so funny to me because I just picture such a straight like matter effect. Not ruffled.

You know, kind of guy. Just very bloody stuff. They'll need wood.

And he just keeps on going. And he's not bothered. I almost get the sense that she's not trying to incite something. She's a little sassy. But she's like, she's kind of like, for there shall walk in the forest. Yeah.

Like a power. She's definitely trying to incite something with her. She's trying to be like, look. Right back at you. And he's like, it's not a right back at me. They'll need wood. Yeah. Like it's so funny because I felt like that sentence set up with all that set up obviously. I think that sentence gave me such a strong impression of our way. And like his character personality.

Yeah. His personality there was like very powerful, which is a really nice touch because this is not a narrative. Like this is not. This is not a story. I guess in the way that Lord of Reigns and the Hobbits are stories.

This definitely does read more like Bible or fairy tale or just like this very omniscient view and omniscient narrator. So to have that level of personality shine. I was like, oh yeah. Oh yeah. This is good.

Well, and I love how Yovanna describes ends because if I had to describe an end, it would not be with these words, right? They're almost endearing. They're they're cuteness. Even though we do see they are very powerful when threatened. But yeah, a power in the forest who is wrath, they will. They will. So that just makes me laugh and smile when I think about Treebird.

So I'm very excited for the next chapter. I have not cheated and read ahead, but I would like to. Because it's going to be good. Shut this out of the coming of the elves and the captivity of Melchor 10 out of 10.

Maybe we'll get some more info on the elves and their different families and stuff.

And then we get into stuff. I feel like we have not talked about. So chapter four, because are we planning on doing three and four next time? I think. Yeah, I think we are doing two at a time. Perfect.

I think that'll be good. I like chapter four's title of Thingel and Melian. I feel like probably Thingel is a totally normal name for somebody.

But to me, that sounds like the creature of the night. Who is? Yeah. Tell me about this new dolem. It's just the name. Oh my gosh. So it's probably a normal dude. I'll probably like him, but I laughed at the name.

I love it. I love it. Okay. Well, I'm super excited. Yeah. Thanks so much for chatting with me about chapters one and two.

Yeah. And I'm super relieved that this is not nearly as bad as I thought it would be. Yes, I know.

I know. I'm not that long. I feel like too. Like the writing is pretty good. It's not like the chapters are crazy long. I don't know.

I would encourage anyone. It's moving at a pace. You can do this. I thought it would be slower. Exactly. We will carry on and we will succeed. That sounds perfect.

Okay. That's a wrap. That's a wrap. Thanks so much for joining us guys.

Bye guys. Thank you.