Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia. Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, beatalons, and laffalons. We are excited to have you as a new friend on this journey with us. Welcome to Speak Friend and Enter, a Lord of the Rings podcast. Hey there, welcome back. So today we're going to talk about Silmarillion chapters 3 and 4. And with us, Nigh on Death's bed is Stephanie.

Hi guys. She's recovering from a cough. Might get a cough here and there, but excited to chat.

Yeah, we'll make it through. I felt like as I was doing the reading, I was like, oh no, I am late. I am not going to finish my reading on time. And then I was like, whoa, these chapters are way shorter than I expected. Chapter 4 is like one page, yeah.

Yeah, it's kind of absurd. So should we do what we did last time, kind of start with chapter 3, just go through like the theme, zest it out? Yes, I would love that. That sounds perfect. Okay.

Just in the future, we could coordinate who has the first one. Mine is about Balra, because where are you at? Do you have anything before that? You know, I, let me look at a couple things. Okay, actually I did have one thing that stood out to me. And so I feel like in our last Silmarillion conversation, we were talking a lot about Yovanna and Ale, her husband. And in this chapter, they talk about kind of the discovery of elves and kind of the Valar that were really influential. And Yovanna is just a boss lady to me, because at the beginning they're talking about how like the world was kind of torched. She's out there doing it all. Right.

Yeah, she's a boss. The world was torched by Melkor. And so they kind of left it in that state and retreated to their Valinor Haven. And they said the trees are there. But I didn't realize that the trees didn't like at the beginning offer light to the whole world. You know what I mean? So it's like the rest of the world is in this semi darkness.

And she looked out at it and asked the question, is anybody trying to fix this? Yeah. It's me again.

Yeah, exactly. She's the one. So it's her and Orom, who are like the only ones that are going out and like looking at the world. And I just love her. And like she comes back to the council and she's just like, Hey, like exactly like what are we going to do? Like, shall we then leave the lands of their dwelling desolate and full of evil? Like she comes back and she's like, dudes, we need to do something about this. Yeah.

This is an unacceptable, what's the word, habitation for God's new children. And her own. And manly, manly, so funny to me because he's like supposedly this really powerful. He's the leader. But yet he's so chill and almost like, I don't know, scared of conflict. He had to think about it. So for many days, he sat in his chair thinking and I'm like, whoa, it's so funny to me. I'm like, maybe he's just, And this is why evil is getting ahead every day while good is still tying its shoes.

I know. I just want to be like, man, wait, get the job done. But then also I'm like, is he wise? Does he not want to go to battle against the core? Like I don't know what he's evaluating, but it was very funny to me that I was like, whoa.

Yeah. And so anyways, I just love you, I want to, I love how she's just like, okay, friends, we need to discuss this and talk about this. And then it's the women getting it done because we talked about Varda, Manway's wife, and how like the elves loved her because she created the stars.

And I didn't even like put the connection. I thought like, yeah, they love the stars. The stars are beautiful. She made these stunning stars and constellations so that because they didn't have light in the rest of the world, that they could have some light. Yeah, that if they woke up in that state before they had gotten to the point of spreading light to the rest of the world, they would have light.

They would have something there. It's a really touchy moment. I have a thought like when we get to that, or at least I can find my comment. Let me see if I can find it right now.

Where is it? Yeah, that's skipping over about our sorry, we can go. Oh, no, it's fine. The ladies are gone. Let's see. Where's the theme? Hold on.

Sir, where are you? Oh, here it is. Yeah, this is the quotes really nice. So this is Varda when she is so it sounds like she creates the stars and or she creates new and brighter stars like they're getting they have like a premonition that things are about to change that the elves are coming. And so she's like, we need new and brighter stars to welcome them.

Yeah, she's on it. And she says, and high in the north as a challenge to Melkor, she set the crown of seven mighty stars to swing. Valakirka, the sickle of the Valar and sign of doom.

I just really enjoyed that light in the process of creating the scene for the elves. She also says an F you Melkor. Can you imagine that you're Melkor you're hating out in your horrible Atomno fortress, another nice day of evil. And after brunch, you go outside and you see that Varda has written your fate in the sky. Like rude.

That's such a good point. I don't know just the drama. I feel like this could be a TV show of just the drama. He would just sit for episodes. We can just see him off screen in his chair.

He's just contemplating. Oh my goodness. All right, we'll jump around a bit, I think, but I want to go over Balrogs because we'll talk about those later. I just adored this quote is after Melkor creates the Balrogs and it's implied that these are just like the spirits that followed him.

He's just like, it's not clear whether the corruption is willing or just incidental because they followed him that far. But the description is lovely. Hearts, their hearts were a fire, but they were cloaked in darkness and terror went before them.

They had whips of flame, Balrogs, they were named. Like, oh, so good. Yeah, I just really enjoyed that description. Every line of it is like perfect poetry.

It's beautifully written. And when we have our deep dive on Balrogs, it's so interesting to me that it's like their hearts were of fire because there's multiple ways that you could kind of like take that. Like either that was part of their who they were. Like if we were in the romance genre, that would be something else entirely. But yeah, like they could be hearts so enraged, so filled with hate and theory, right? Could be hate, could be passion, could be pride, this desire to conquer, which we talked a lot about.

Like Melkor kind of possesses that. Anyways, I love it. All right, get another one.

I have a I have a couple lined up, but go for it. Oh my gosh, no. Okay, so I talked about Yvonne. She's a boss. Talked about Varda.

She's amazing. And let's see what else? What else we talked about the Balrogs. Oh, man.

Okay. So we're talking about when the elves finally do wake up. They're kind of in this like lake, some of this old beautiful spot that we get the impression didn't get fully torched and like destroyed when Melkor kind of came through and knocked over the lamps. So they're in this spot, but they have like these monsters and these evil shadows out there in the world that are kind of that they're aware of. And what I think is so beautiful is even though they're in this kind of precarious place, they're singing. They call themselves like the speakers or the singers like the Quendi, right? To just signify that they have a voice.

Yeah, because they don't meet any other creatures that have this because they have not met the Valar yet. And then can you imagine like what a what a story of like alien first contact. Oh man. Or you think you're alone in the world with just you and the animals and then you find out that they're a Valar that are greater than you. Yeah.

And can you find out the orcs? Yeah. Oh my gosh, I know.

That's brutal. But I just thought the Valar would be a very pleasant surprise. That would be such a pleasant surprise. And I just thought how sweet that they're like, I don't know, hopefully they have a little bit of a safe haven, but they're in this precarious situation. And yet they're like speaking and singing and I don't know, they have like joyous, yeah, this joyous name, which I thought was really sweet and meaningful. That's lovely. Also on the 20, there's a really lovely quote about them. It says, for though the beauty of the 20 in the days of their youth was beyond all other beauty that Illuvatar has caused to be, it has not perished, but lives in the West and sorrow and wisdom have enriched it. And I just I really enjoy that description.

But I also really enjoy the take that sorrow and wisdom, which I think is at least corollary, but sorrow can cause the beauty to become even more so. Wow. Yeah. And it just it ties into like, and like all of that. It's just a strong theme in Tolten that grief and sorrow have purposes. And I feel like in the modern day, you necessarily think, oh, yeah, sorrow makes this more beautiful.

I personally liked bittersweet, but a lot of people don't. So I thought that was an interesting phrase. I think that's so, I love that phrase. And I actually think it describes the elves really well, because I don't know, you see them at least in the movies and TV shows, and they're beautiful people, right? But there's this, I don't want to say like a weight or maturity, but like, a almost like this wisdom and thoughtfulness and depth to them.

Yeah. That I think takes the there who they are. And that's what makes them else. It makes them feel well lived.

Yeah. Yeah, because I think, you know, people make those jokes about like, what would you do if you could live forever? And I'm like, I would actually, I think I saw me in that something like you towers, you don't want to live forever. And I was like, totally on board. It's like, I have so many hobbies that I need to become a master of.

I love time. But I also really enjoy like, there needs to be a realism to the world building. Like, I feel like in fantasy that it's often written, you're supposed to believe that this character or this people or whoever it is is thousands of years old.

And I'm like, they sound like a teenager. No chance. No chance. And it's just completely unbelievable. Whereas Torchens elves have always felt even older than the one that he portrays him, which is really nice. Really well done. They have a gravitas for sure. Exactly. I kind of want to, unless you have one right now, I want to go back to kind of what you said about how when the elves first awoke, there was there was like, dark shadows around them, like rumor of monsters and things like this, and maybe monsters in actuality. So I think this is really interesting. It says, now Melkor greatly hated and feared the writing of aroma. And either he sent either he sent indeed his dark serfens as writers, or he sent lying whispers abroad for the purpose that the Quendis should shun or roam if ever they should meet.

And I loved this because I looked at this like, whoa, this is fascinating context to like the setup and Lord of the Rings, which is the idea of black writers. Oh my gosh. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. So really interesting that Sauron sends out these black writers and what is really meant by these? These are just some ancient Elven booty man brought to life. Wild.

So fun. And what's he doing this because he's like, he didn't have to send them out in black writer form. He like, he could have done it in any other form.

So I think it's really interesting that that was the form that he chose. And he's like, yes, let's teach the elves their lesson this time. And the fact that he's like, I don't want them to come in contact with the Valar. Right.

And obviously he preemptively tries to stop it and is fortunately unsuccessful. But that's just, I feel like because once you meet a Valar, you're like, oh, wow, obviously this is a being of glory. Yeah. There's something different about you. Yeah. So anyways, I really enjoyed that because it's like, it's so spiteful and silly almost. I love that. That they that he would even bother to do this. But he's so petty. He's so petty. Oh my gosh.

And you're right. I love what you said, like, elvish boogie man, because I think somewhere in here, as it's talking about, it goes even further. And it talks about the battle that the Valar wage, because they now realize that the children have arrived. But it talks about how like, this is so far in the past that even the elves don't fully have like the story.

And they were not involved in the battle. So they don't have it. They just know exactly. And so I think you do get kind of almost this that I feel like would perfectly set up like there's something, there's something wrong with this. Like there's a story that's deep in your bones, but you don't know why. Right.

And I'm trying to think, I was trying to think about what's the equivalent in like our mythology? What is the oldest boogie man you can think of? Something under the bed. I don't know. Why is it horrible? Something horrible under the bed. I, I, this slide was blanking out. I guess I don't think about monsters enough. But yeah, there's gotta be some kind of like English boogie man that like is deep in our bones.

I know. I just go. I feel like that gets a lot of people. Yeah. Yeah. And it's kind of universal.

Like we all have some kind of like different cultures have some kind of story around that. I feel like. Yeah. All right, you've got one Let me see. What else would I want to talk about? Okay. I love the writers.

I love, okay. So we're kind of digging in here to our own comes and they recognize that he's different, right? And they're like, well, and I thought it was interesting. They were saying like the brave, kind of the brave ones are the ones that stuck around and we're like, okay, we'll see like something's different.

We'll stick around and then or Rome goes back to the Valar and he's like, oh my gosh, like they're here, right? And to see just the sudden shift of like that, that presidency prods them into severe action. Exactly.

That hesitancy is gone. And it's really interesting because if you think about it, I was looking at that and I thought, huh, this is like, if you surprise found out you had a baby that had stayed. Like, and now I'm a father. It's time for me to be responsible and take care of my child.

Like it's exactly that feeling. I know. We are parents now. Let's go.

It's time to like fight Melchor and get everything done. And yeah, so it really triggers the parenting instinct and the protective instinct. Exactly.

And something that made me laugh. So at the beginning, I think when Yovana comes in, she's like, okay, guys, like, do we want to prepare a little bit? Should we buy a crib instead of the nursery? Exactly. Now we don't need to do that. But Tolkis is there and he's like, yeah, let's get out there.

Let's prepare. And Tolkis is the laughing one who came down purposefully to kind of boot Melchor out. And then Melchor comes back out of his wedding night and knocks over the lamps. And so Tolkis is like always down. He's always down to go after Melchor. And so I love how he specifically mentioned him. He ruined my wedding.

He's going to ruin the birth of my children. Exactly. He's like, okay, yeah, I've been waiting. I'm ready.

And so he's like, yeah, let's do this. That just makes me laugh. And then I love this phrase. And it's so interesting how so Melchor is this creature or this person, this being that seems so powerful, right? We've talked about his origin, all the stuff that he creates and efforts to be like, au lai or excuse me, like, ru ru. And it's so funny to me, the amount of like, how threatened he feels by the elves and the men and what they are and their life and their purpose.

Yeah. And so I think in the previous chapter, there was that quote was like, and he feared men the most, which is just like, why in comprehensible. It's like, it's a God fearing an aunt. You know, it's wild. And I do think it's so interesting how it says like, so once the Valar like, oh my gosh, they're here and they're getting ready and they're like, okay, we're going to go wage this war. It says like Melchor never did Melchor forget that this war was made for the sake of the elves and that they were the cause of his downfall. Even though they weren't involved.

No, they totally were. Because it's exactly that thing. As soon as the elves arrived, the Valar were like, F this, we got children to protect, let's go.

We write that down. It just, it instantly started them into a much more aggressive stance, which, which is interesting because Melchor might be entirely right. If the elves had not come or if they had not come so soon, maybe Melchor would have made so much progress against the Valar that they would could not have one. Yeah, who knows? That would have been wild.

Who knows what his plans were. But I just think that's so interesting kind of like, kind of to your point, like the way that the special hatred against elves, which being, yeah. I love that. Right before that, it talks about the vilest deed of Melchor, which I thought was very interesting. So it says this, it may be, was the vilest deed of Melchor and the most hateful to a Louvitar.

And this was twisting the elves into orcs. Then you can see why, of course, right? Because these are, these are the firstborn of a Louvitar. Like, can you imagine the pain of that and having your children twisted into such a nasty, horrible monster? Yeah.

That's rough. And the words they used, right? That's so he was like, I thought it was interesting. They're like, they knew that these elves were getting stolen away by these shadows and monsters. We're 100% sure what their lives were like. But it talks about how they were put in prison and by slow arts of cruelty were corrupted and enslaved. And thus did Melchor breed the hideous race of orcs and envy and mockery of the elves.

And then it talks about how the orcs secretly like deep down, even though they were created in this way, deep down they hate their master, this creator of theirs. And also, I think in a way, like kind of hate how they were created. And they have to hate themselves. Yeah, in a way, kind of hate themselves.

And I'm like, oh, that's brutal. Yeah, it's really interesting because they're not really like a, they're not like a true race, you know, like they're not a true people, because they're corrupted from the elves. So they have all this bad edge that comes with them. And when you think about like, on earth, even like a hideous species, like some kind of parasitic, gross worm thing, even it has its own purpose, you know, and it has like, it seems to me like it has a truer purpose than an orc. It's just like the orcs are, if you took Mr. Parasite gross worm theme, and like, I'm sure there's a creature like that on earth, I just choose not to know. It has a real purpose, you know, and it's meant to be where it's supposed, it's meant to be there.

It has a place in the food chain. But the orc just doesn't. And that's kind of like half the corruption. Except for Melkor's will and purpose, right? Exactly. Yeah.

So he goes in, he's like, how can I disrupt everything here? And I mean, yeah, it's interesting. It's wild. And it's interesting too, because we could go on a whole deep dive on like people's thoughts about orcs, because it talks about by slow arts of cruelty, where they corrupted, but then at the same time. And so I'm kind of getting the sense of like, morphed from the outside, right, by like, magic, by cruelty, by all this stuff.

But then he does use the word did breed the hideous race. Yeah. So I think it was over the course of time, and it goes from generation one to generation. So is this like, yeah, genuinely like couples that were having children in this terrible environment?

I don't know. Or slowly, or is this like, like people all the time in the movies, they show it being born from the ground, because I think there's a quote about orcs. Oh, kind of like them being like machine made, essentially. Yeah, yeah. I don't know. It's interesting. I think there's a whole thing.

I know how they're, I know how like the Euretiar portrayed. Yeah, exactly. Kind of like in like a birthing bubble. Yeah, almost like there's some kind of magic birth. Yeah.

Magic. I don't know how the orcs are, because I also took that to be at some point, did like they were tortured and corrupted, but I did also take that to be breeding. Like they were having children. And so that's interesting. We could be. And that's even worse.

Because like the past, like the previous generation to look at the next generation, and they'd be worse and worse and worse and worse until they're all indecisive. Well, and I wonder, because people criticize often, I think there are a lot of really interesting gray characters in Tolkien's world, but people talk about orcs as being not a very gray character, right? Something that Tolkien doesn't really have a lot of range of or if there is range. Did you say great or gray? Gray, excuse me. Yeah. Yeah.

So I think he does have a lot of good gray characters, but orcs, we don't necessarily always like see a gradient. They are, they are corrupted. Yeah. And so from the perspective we see him from. I'm just curious, like with this information of they have felt taken advantage of, but it was that at the OG generation and as the later generation, I don't know, like, yeah, I think the implication is that they're too far gone by the time you get to an orc proper.

Yeah. Cause I looked at it as like, here are my experimental generations. And now 20, 30 later, however, we don't know how long it took him to do this. 20 or 30 later, you just have this theme that has no memory of its past, no real connection to any of that heritage and how could it? Like it's been corrupted from that heritage. And that's why they hate themselves and they hate their master and they hate everything. Do you think that there could be deeply horrible redemption arc though? For I don't know, that's very interesting.

Would have to be by magic. But we don't know what's in store at like the end of the world, right? Yeah.

That's the only place like I could feel. I can't think of one personally. Yeah.

I don't know. I think it's, I think what I, we should probably say this if we ever do a deep dive on orcs, but I think for me personally, like I see them, I don't think they always love being pulled into these wars and evil causes. Like when you see goblins or orcs or whatever running through like living in the mines, they're, they're definitely a more violent, not the most pleasant society, but they're free, right? They don't have this. Yeah. But they're not exactly wanting to be pulled into this global conflict thing.

They have, they have smaller, pettier fights. And so part of me thinks like they're just there. Excuse me.

Society. that I don't know is living its life definitely carnivorous but like there's- By reading and pillaging everyone else, yes. The reading and pillaging maybe an issue, but I don't know, I always wonder. I feel like there is potential redemption there. You are very hopeful. I support you.

Thank you. Hey, what else do we wanna take into? No, go ahead. I have a couple, I have a couple still on this chapter. So there's just a brief mention of this.

It's very tantalizing, but very slight. It says, in that time the shape of Middle Earth was changed and the great sea that sundered it from Amman grew wide and deep. And I'm like, there it is, the end of Pangea. And it's just casually stated, but what I always think about in this situation because there's a lot of fantasy books where this happens, like yeah, all of a sudden, we've got new continents, we've got new islands and down with that place up with here. And I just think, what about the destruction and the like chaos that would be caused by this kind of thing? And so it's interesting and perhaps a indication of how chaotic and destructive those times were that like, this is just like, yep, and one day the sea was 40 times wider than it used to be.

And it was no biggie because we have earthquakes and tsunamis every day in those days. Yeah. And like, can you imagine like an older elven person like talking to their granddaughter? Like when I was a young one, I had to go to school through three tsunamis and four earthquakes and 500 orcs. And I walked the whole way.

And I walked the whole way. So something similar to that because like, this is so chaotic and so, just there's so much going on in this period. Yeah, I thought that was interesting. I'm so glad you hit on this because I feel like when, so the Valorant, they decided to come down and when they come down, like they hit up a tumno, which is kind of the main fortress that Melkor has been hanging out in and they come down hard. Kind of like what you're saying, like they come down with pretty much all their might, strong enough to change the landscape of the world.

And can you imagine just being in an elf over here on this other side and you're just seeing mountains rise and fall. And they talk about that. Like for both volcanoes, I'm sure. Like all kinds of things going on. And like what kind of, and obviously they weren't there in all the battles.

They don't have like inner details of it, but what else do you need? You're watching for 500 miles away and you still feel the earthquake rumbling, right? Yeah. Well, and we talk a little bit about like the Isle of Numenor and how a lot of that was, I think inspired by kind of the story of Atlantis. We have a lot of legends around, kind of large, shaking, geographical things happening. And I just think, when it talks about the elves, not necessarily being in the battles, but just seeing all these things happening, right? Like mountains coming up and water coming from new sources. I wonder if that's almost like a similar legend for them, you know, like having some kind of really almost prehistoric memory of like, I was here, like I remember, there was a legend. And then think about how calm the earth feels now.

Yeah. You know, it would feel almost still. That's like frozen. That's really interesting, yeah. Yeah. Let's see, I have another one here that I liked a lot. Oh yeah.

This one's great. So this is just later on in the chapter, it says, the Valar summoned the Quendita Valinor, there to be gathered at the knees of the powers in the light of the trees forever. And Mando's broke his silence saying, so it is doomed. And I understand this might be like an older use of the word doomed, like so it is foretold, so it is like prophecy, et cetera, et cetera. But like the way he says, so it is doomed, dang, and then it continues, from the summons came many woes that afterwards befell.

That is just very good shadowing, foreshadowing. And I assume they're talking about the Silmarils here, but I'm not positive and I'm very intrigued. Well, and Mando, so he's the, you know, kind of the god of. He's got some prophecy, right? Prophecy, yeah. And he has like a Hades component to him where he's kind of over this hall of, you know, I guess we'll say spirits and people who have passed on.

And so it is fascinating because you almost get the sense of like the fates, right? Like, okay, we've made this decision. There's no turning back. And now we're stuck with it. Yeah.

Yeah, it's, that was a very intriguing bet. I was like, oh, Mando, tell us more. But that's all he says. I know.

Typical. You'd think that man way would be like Mando. Why you say that? Oh my gosh.

Yeah, Mando's interesting that you speak now. Let's dive into that. But no, there's nothing. When we were making this decision, you were pretty silent. I know.

Let's see what else is there. It is interesting and I think kind of counterintuitive because you would say to yourself, if a godly creature summoned me to the Garden of Eden, would I go? And the answer is like, yeah, that would be dope. And these elves are like, no, that would be not as dope. Because it says, They're stubborn. But many, I know, or they're afraid of the unknown.

I just decided how much of it was that. It says, but many elves refuse the summons preferring the starlight and the wide spaces of Middle Earth to the rumor of the trees. And these are the Avari, the unwilling, and they were sundered in that time from the elder.

I met never again until many ages were passed. I had never heard of that. I had never heard that the elves were split out like that. And I'm very curious which branch, Delagril and Co. come from. I assume they are Eldar. I believe they are Eldar because, and then even in the movies, I feel like they reference the term Eldar whether it's like, I don't know, the light of the Eldar or something along those lines.

I think you're right, I think so. But I didn't know what the Eldar were. So that like, I assumed it was just like an elder elf. Yeah. So it's very interesting to know that there are other branches of elves.

Do we ever meet one? This was very helpful for me. Yeah, so this is the thing where, so okay, so we have the Eldar and then we have the other branch that stays. But then eventually down the road with like the battle of the Simerals and everything going on, we have Eldar elves coming back to Middle Earth. Right, and that's when they meet again in several ages. And there is a little bit of tension, I think between the two types of elves.

Totally down for that, very excited. But I'm curious because I think to your earlier point, like Galadriel, she definitely talks about, she has a whole history in Valinor, so she is definitely Eldar. But then people like Legolas, he's actually from like the Merckwood Woodland Elves, which I wonder if that's from a different. Yeah, do you think they come from the Eldar when they return or they were Evari?

I don't know, that's what. It was just something that I didn't even know I should be asking myself, I was like, oh, which lineage are we talking here? And I was very interested also in the fact that the ones, they're like the Eldar that leave and then like as they're leaving, there are these different groups, the ones that were actually, they had a good project manager and they did their travel on time and then the other ones didn't have their receipts and so they couldn't get the refund and so they lingered. Like it was very realistic, like okay, so we're gonna have some people stay and some people go and other people who go, they're gonna struggle with different parts of the journey and so you're gonna have the stragglers and of those stragglers, different things happen to them.

So I just thought it was. Yeah, and they break off and kind of settle in different places. It's a little bit of a minutia, but like it was, it's exactly how that kind of exodus would actually happen. So it made perfect sense and I enjoyed that. I thought this was so helpful to kind of like your point, get the sense of the different types of elves because I knew there were different types.

They talk about the Noldor, they talk about all of these different types and I was like, what is the background of these differences? And I was just looking up, so, okay, so Legolas is a Cinder Elf and that is actually a subgroup of the Tolarion elves who chose to settle and Valyrian. Yeah. Yeah, so were those the ones that never made it to Valinor? Yeah, so those are the ones that kind of broke off on the, where they were like, sure, we'll go to Valinor, but then along the way. But then they were so slow and they were like, this place is beautiful and they kind of were drawn to the water and all this stuff.

It's also really interesting because if you think about it, what's happening here? You literally have a God being come to you and say, hey, would you like to go to heaven? And you say, yes, I would sign on for heaven.

And then he says, it'll be 40 years in the wilderness, let's go. And it's really interesting to think about the heaven that is only rumored versus the heaven that you see in front of you. And how like your eyes and yeah, and just like the impression that the present and what is in front of you can obscure, potentially the greater good, like potentially the better heaven that you could have preached. And it's tough because like these are amazing elves.

You know what I mean? Like we're looking at the ancestors of like Legolas. Right. And these are elves who are not short-sighted. Like they're an older creature. And so even they fall into that trap, which I thought was really interesting. And so it's like, it's funny because it's hard for me to say like they chose poorly, but I see what you're saying.

I don't know if they did, but you know what I mean? It's like if God offered you heaven and you didn't choose heaven, why didn't you? And you're like, man, this lake is real nice though.

I think I'm going to stay by this waterfall. Yeah. Yeah. Like did they think there was no water in Valinor? You know, I like to think about it, maybe a little more from like a romantic perspective.

Do it, do it. Just like they were talking about the ones. But they were in love with the place.

Yeah, they were in love with the stars and the wide open spaces. And I think there's something interesting. There's something, I don't know, really interesting to the fact that if you could be like, wow, this stunning, this like sun and moon kind of light coming from these trees, that sounds beautiful. But I have found so much joy and beauty in my current situation that even though, I don't know, you could kind of promise me this incredible sight or this incredible alternative.

I have found so much beauty and joy here in my life that I'm happy. Yeah, I'm not necessarily saying it was like a bad choice, but like it's an interesting choice. It's an interesting choice. And I'm curious, like, do we think, I guess if we were to kind of push ourselves, do we think there's something noble and saying like I find a lot of joy and beauty where I'm at?

And so I'm going to stay here. Or do we think it's like you should always push for the better? Yeah, I'm kind of torn on that. Because I'm very much of the opinion, like you should ideally be settling in and building roots. And if you're an elf, those roots are gonna go deep, right? So I'm a little torn on that. I'm not sure I could answer. I know, it's hard.

But it's an interesting prospect. Oh, that's so good, so deep. I have like just two more here on this chapter. There's one little one here that I thought was really cute.

Well, not cute, exactly. It's just in another book, this would be an entirely different idea. So it says, but the Umanyar and the Ivaria alike, they call Mori-Qwendi, Elves of Darkness, for they never beheld the light that was before the sun and moon, so they never saw the trees. I just love this concept of elves of darkness. And if you were in a different fantasy book, somebody said the elves of darkness. They live over there in the West Fold land or whatever. And it'd be all ominous and you'd go over there and they'd be orcs, right? Whereas in Tolkien, you say the elves of darkness and there's so much backstory. It is literally because they missed the light source that was before the sun, you know?

Yeah. It's just not how other fantasy would treat it. And I just really enjoyed the idea of, I'm an elf of darkness.

And you're just like as beautiful and stunning as all the other elves. You know what this is giving? I don't think you have not read a court of thorns and roses. I have not.

I have not. It's very popular right now. What are they doing this one? But it's making us laugh because it reminds me of the main, well, I don't wanna spoil it for people who haven't read them.

I'm sure it's been out for many, many years. Spoilers definitely do it. There is a love interest. Makes them suffer. It's from the court of night, right? And you have all these other beautiful courts.

Like ones that I think are probably more stereotypical to what we find, I don't know, pretty. Like you have the spring court and the summer court. And I think there's like the sea, you know, like the ocean. And so you have like these really beautiful like elemental pieces, but then they have like the night court. And it's just this whole like the starlight and the sky and all of this. And that's what these elves remind me of, right? Like they're giving hard night court. That's very funny.

So yeah, that's what it reminded me of, but I love that. Very nice. Okay, my last one on this guy. This is just a random off quote here. So it names an elf.

I don't even know the context. Denethor, son of Lenway. And my only thought was, okay, was Denethor of Dondor, Stuart of Dondor, was he named after this random elf? And I don't know. I didn't look it up. I probably should have, but it's a really intriguing idea.

Because I don't know. I just love the idea that like men name their children after elves because the instant thought I had was elves would never do that. Elves would never name their children after random Joe Blow man. It's so funny.

And just like the inequity of it all. Like you've got like a new parent, holding his tiny little human child and going, you know who should we name him after? That one famous elf from legend. And that famous elf from legend is still alive, of course. And then you've got like elf of legend having their first child and he's like, what you want to name him a human child? What?

Like there's no reciprocation in this relationship whatsoever. I think it's hilarious. Oh man.

You know what's funny? And I love like that idea of naming after a legend because when I read that, the thing that I was kind of thinking about is Aragorn's type of man is different than. Oh, the Numenorean versus. Yeah, with that Numenorean blood is like different than, oh man, is it just like the men of the West? Like kind of that more stereotypical stock. And so it made me wonder, cause Denethor also I believe is from kind of that Numenorean background being the steward of the king and his lineage coming from that.

And the Numenoreans. Is he older than I think? Well, no, I don't think that's him.

Oh my gosh, I don't think that's him. But what I was wondering is I think the Numenoreans throughout time had kind of combinations between elves and men. I know Aragorn definitely has in his lineage. And so it made me wonder if there was like some really far back lineage. If these elves eventually kind of had. So that could have been in his family tree. That's what I was wondering. In the steward of Gondor's family tree.

I was wondering if like this, this hecka way back in the past elf was at all potentially related to him. Yeah, that would be, I'll have to check out. Some random line. That was a random thought I had.

I was like, whoa, that's funny. Because like the way you see Denethor, steward of Gondor, he would never want to be named after him. Oh my gosh, I know.

It's not a name that we love. That's what I had for book three. I don't even think I had any comments on chapter four. Oh my gosh, chapter four was so interesting.

You're gonna have to hold those up. Because that one was a wild read for me. It was a little out there. You know, it makes me laugh because we talked about this in the first one, the first two chapters where the first chapter is kind of this big, like the beginning of days. Let me tell you about the creation of the earth. And then the second chapter is like... And let me tell you about the divorce of Owl-A.

Exactly, like Owl-A and Yovanna. And they're like, hey. It's like big picture, little picture, big picture, little picture. And maybe that's how it's gonna be the whole book we'll find out.

Yeah, and that's what this was. It was kind of like a little romance, one pager. I was not feeling the romance.

You were not feeling it. It's a very technical way of... It's like, here I am, hanging out in my forest in snaring random men. Oh my gosh. It was so funny. You know, she sounded very romantic at first. I love the idea of like songbirds and kind of almost like bringing song and singing into the world. But then yeah, it just sounds like... Just like swept off, kind of like the pinepiper. So enraptured that he forgot he insisted and his people insisted and his purpose insisted and his friends insisted.

And just literally everything he forgot. Though this is a really interesting contrast because you could say, oh, the enchanting beauty of the elves. But now we have to be one step higher than an elf, Amaya.

Oh, the enchanting beauty of Amaya. That'll screw your brain up forever. Very interesting. Well, the thing I actually thought was interesting because kind of similar to you, I was like, oh, okay. Like this is kind of random, kind of like, I don't know.

Fast, a little technical. The last sentence was the most fascinating to me. It says, yeah. And of the love of Thingol and Melian, there came into the world the fairest of all the children of Eluatar that was or shall ever be. And so my thought process there and of the love, is that talking about their descendants being the most fair? I think so.

And that was a question I had for you. I was like, whoa, I did not know that we had, like we have a few like elves and humans, but now we have elves and Maya. And that feels like a step above. A freaking Maya, yeah. Which, I mean, we've talked about the Valar being coupled off. Makes sense that the Maya could also have relationships. But was just fascinating. I don't know why I wasn't thinking of it in that way. Yeah, and so part of me wonders, I haven't actually heard that much about this couple.

We, yeah. I'm looking it up right now to see if I can find like a family tree or something. I wanna know. I wanna know who is considered the hottest elf of all time because they descended from Thingol and Melian. Honestly, and so part of me wonders if this was included, because there's going to be some kind of down the road. Yeah, genealogy or we hear a lot about Baron and Luthien as like a love story between men and elves.

And that's kind of homage with Arwen and Aragorn. Like I'm just curious. There's something in here that he was like, I wanna add this little tidbit. And I bet it's the foundation of something else.

Yeah, I agree. I am trying to find where the heck is it? Oh, here it is. Oh, well, duh, you're absolutely right.

Your instincts are 1000% correct. We have Thingol and Melian and guess who is their child, Luthien. Oh my gosh, are you serious? Yes.

According to this Twitter screen grab. Okay, yes. I should have seen that coming. I did not see it coming.

I was creeped out instead. Well, we'll like to say that he was enamored with her, but everything was his own individual choice. I doubt that, but I was spec- You're like, he's just so so so so of his feet. It's just magic. Dude, that was like brain damage occurred. Oh my gosh.

He forgot everything. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. But it makes perfect sense now why this is in here. The whole time I think it, why this is in here, But now it connects to Luthien, who I only know her name. I really still don't know anything about her, so I'm really excited. I'm excited to learn more about her because we're gonna get her full story.

And it's Marlion. Was there anything else in chapter four for you? Honestly, I think that's about it. It was kind of like, oh, this is interesting. Like, I haven't really heard of these people. I liked the song Bird's Part at the beginning. I thought the last sentence was really intriguing where I was like, ooh. Wait, hold on.

I just reread one small section where I was like, of course this is why it was so stretchy. Did this. Marlion spoke no word, but being filled with love, Elway came to her and took her hand and straight away, a spell was laid on him so that they stood thus while long years were measured by the wheeling stars above them. A spell was laid on him.

I... This is a date rape. I like to think about it as in like, he was so enamored with her. He was starstruck.

It was like, yeah, it was like magic. Comparative. I mean, I respect that perspective, but that is not how I read it. I was like, wow, that's creepy. Anyways, but it is interesting to, I feel like this is kind of like the wilder side of the elves, you know, in like modern fantasy where they talked about the fey and how the fey had these like, they're beautiful and they have these like, spells that they can cast with their voice and they're just always filled with glamours and stuff like that.

This has very much that angle. This glamour, this spell, even just looking at them is dangerous because their beauty may enrapture you, et cetera, et cetera. And I don't know how far back to those fey mythologies go. Like obviously, Tolcom was looking at a lot of like stuff.

I don't know how deep into the Irish and Celtic stuff he went, deep enough, obviously. So it is kind of fun to see that side. This is kind of like the elemental wild side of an elf. You're not, and the Maya and, okay, that made me think. So we talk a lot about Maya either kind of being good or being evil, right? Like aligning themselves with Melkor or being with the... We don't really talk about them as powerfully mature.

Do we talk about like, like gray characters that have their own like preferences and personalities and maybe make mistakes in art? Yeah. And rapture elves on the limb.

And rapture elves on the limb. Cause you're right, like I was kind of thinking like, oh, okay, I'm gonna read this as like a very sweet. This feels very like chaotic neutral. Yeah, but maybe this is...

Anybody could have fallen into this snare and it happened to be him, but like it could have been somebody else. I don't know. It's just interesting.

Yeah, no, I love that. And I love that comparison to the fey and kind of like getting swept up in magic. Cause I always think like the elves are probably, you know, not gonna fall for that. Like they have their own magic and they're strong enough. Yeah, you do get their strong eyes and so strong.

Yeah. And protected against magic. It does make you think like, man, the Maya and the Valar and kind of all the magic out there. Like we've seen some strong characters in Lord of the Rings where they don't fall for the ring, where they don't, you know, Gandalf doesn't take it and he fights the Balrog and he comes up. Like we've seen strong characters. But really like... We've seen them demonstrate magical powers, but it's just a tiny, tiny, tiny fraction of what like the nets level up to do. Yeah, yeah, but magic is...

They're a bigger fish. Wily. Magic is wily and it's really powerful in this world, right?

And so I think it's interesting to say like, not everyone can just power through or not fall for something. Like there was no way he was getting out of that one. No way.

He was screwed from the beginning. Oh my gosh. Anyways, that's a wrap for me.

I don't have any adults. That's a wrap. No, that was perfect. Thank you so much guys for staying and listening to us talk through chapters three and four. It's been awesome.

And it looks like chapters five and six are next and it's gonna be of Eldamar and then princes of the Eldali. Don't know what that is. All right, this is pretty exciting. I know this name. Chapter six of Feanor and the Unchaining of Meltwar.

I think we've talked about Feanor and briefly before. Bo-bo-boom. Yes.

It's a big, that's a big event. Yeah, that should be really good. Awesome.

I'm excited. Okay. All right. We'll see you then. Bye.