Hi there, I'm Stephanie.

And I'm Lydia. Come along with us as we explore and learn about the world of Tolkien through deep dives on lore, characters, betelons, and lafflons. We are excited to have you as a new friend on this journey with us. Welcome to Speak Friend and Enter a Lord of the Rings podcast. Hey, welcome. Hello.

All right, so we're gonna talk about the Silmarillion chapters five and six. Things are getting busy. We're learning new things about new people.

The good stuff is coming. I did not know like any of these names. So none of this was like spoiled for me. I knew Feyenoor's name, but I'd never like really understood who or what he is. And then there's all this like foreboding foreshadowing where where Tolkien says, and then Feyenoor was like this and that proved to be bad for him and everyone.

No chapter. So I think that's very amusing. It was very amusing. Chapter five was like, oh, my goodness, because I think some of the earlier chapters, I felt like this is a lot of backstory kind of prepping for the main events that you talk about. Are you here about being in the Simmarillion? But chapter five was like, OK, we're getting into like more of the meat. That's the preparation for everything going on with Morgoth.

So. It makes me excited. And I think it's pretty clear that this is the story he was trying to get to tell. Because it's like you said, we we went from history butch to while we're still a little bit history butch style, but now it's history, but with, yo, this is going to go down. But I don't know what's going to happen. I mean, we kind of know because we did some of those little like starter episodes where we said, ah, this is the gist of it. But we're going to learn in depth.

I'm very excited. So we kick off from the beginning and it's all about the elves are still endlessly trying to get across the sea and over and this is chapter five. And there's and this is chapter five. Yeah.

So we start off with that. And my first note that I thought, well, this is cool is when I can't remember which section of the elves. I guess it was the Eldar. So the Eldar are like, no, we're ready to go now. Take us over, take us and almost no problem. I'll just read my island over.

I'll dock it and you can get on and it will all fail over. That was awesome. That was so cool because you see like the stale that the Valar can work on.

And it's very impressive. But yeah, I loved that. That was so good.

I did love that as well. And also, OK, so this made me want to look up some geography because they talk about Beleriand and I've heard it a decent amount. And I kind of forgotten like, where is Beleriand again?

Because they were mentioning it. But this is actually a piece of land that was to the west of the Middle Earth that we know in the Lord of the Rings movies. And it was destroyed and kind of crumbled into the sea after the War of Wrath, which is the upcoming war with Morgoth and the Valar.

When Morgoth gets free and the Valar go after him. OK, so it's kind of one of a sort of Atlantis, but not the later Atlantis. Yeah, so Atlantis exactly. I think Numenor is like this little island that gets swallowed by waves, kind of maybe more perfectly aligned with Atlantis. But Beleriand is like a whole part of the continent because of the intensity of the war that's going to happen in the future. It just like, it's like the land can't take it anymore.

And it just like crumbles. So I thought that was really interesting. So they are technically on a piece of land, because that's why when they talk about they were saying like Orom didn't take them through the passage up north. That was like all icy, because technically it was like super close. It's almost like you could pass over or maybe you could.

But they were afraid of that. I guess it's like you could pass over almost from Middle Earth to the land of the Valar. And I was like, wow, that's so interesting. Like, I don't remember that in Lord of the Rings, but it's because that whole swath of land of Beleriand was like destroyed.

So isn't there like a similar place in our world? What is that called? The the very northern crossing. Is it you're thinking Alaska and Russia called? Yes, I actually don't know.

This is my geography coming back to bite me. I don't know. There is a name for that. And that's what it makes me think of is that that particular crossing. That's cool. Yeah. That was helpful for me because I was like, where is all this stuff?

Because they were talking a lot about geography here. Yeah. So on that note, some of the the classic books that I've been reading, there are various editions and the best editions. What is the brand? They're called Landmark, Landmark Edition.

I don't know if they're the best translation, but they are the best for noobs because it's like every two minutes, every two or three pages, there's another big fat map. And it says, here you are. Here's where we are.

Here's where the things are happening. It's just so useful because all of these like classic Greek books. Everyone is just like, yeah, I'm a Greek professor. I've known about Greece since I was two. You know, they have no problem with the geography where I'm like, I just entered a chapter where 20 city names were dumped on me and I'm supposed to know their their relations.

Yeah. So if we had a Landmark edition of the Silmarillion, I would find it very useful. Just like a map every couple pages just to know where we're at. There's little footnotes on the side.

I don't know. We should look at that or if not, we should make it. That's true. That would require some map making skills.

Oh, and it's the Bearing Street, the straight between. Yeah, thank you. I shouldn't have asked that. Thank you. Perfect. Yeah, that's a really good analogy there. I think that's exactly what it's like.

So almost, I think, pulls off the biggest and baddest news. And then after that, what do we got? We have like a bunch of like various sects of Elves. So many different groups.

We don't want to go over, but don't do it. There's just like various places. It's like they all start dithering around and then finally start the crossing. Yeah, there's a lot of dithering.

There were so many. And it's interesting because I was so confused while I was reading this. And so I was looking at a graph online and there's some what some sweet soul has like done a graph of all of the different groups of Elves. And so it has like the Eldar. Because every time he introduced one, the Nets page, there were three subsets. Exactly. And I got lost.

It was so confusing. And so we have he's like, we have the Van Yar and the Noldor. And those are ones that Elves who have seen the light is like they went straight over. So they they went straight over the first time. Were they the ones who went straight over when Olmo pulled the island? I think so.

Yeah. And then you have the Tuleri, which are actually split. So you have the Selma who do eventually go. And then the remainder of them, which do not go. And those are divided up between, I think, the Cindar and the Nandor. OK, yeah, that sounds about right.

But basically many, many groups of Elves with a lot of different backgrounds. I mean, it is interesting that there's I think I said this last time it's here's the invitation literally come to heaven and it's so controversial. Nobody can decide to go.

They all delay. Maybe maybe this is like the invite to go to heaven. Maybe you're thinking, oh, no, I am still sinful. What is it actually going to be like?

I got to get my last few sins in before we go. But yeah, it's super interesting because the reasons why they stay are all different, where some of them are like, oh, but we love it here. Like it's so beautiful.

Like I don't leave this. And I guess I'm just still I'm kind of interested in Tolkan's choice as to make this so such a pivotal point. I don't know why he wanted to do it this way. Maybe it's just natural, right? Maybe it's this is a theme that people would do over or maybe he wanted it, especially because he's like, I need these certain Elves to have been with the Valor. I need these ones to be like this.

I need these ones to be like this. This is a chance for the Elves to to fracture and to develop a distinct personalities within their different subgroups. I could see that being it. But again, it is just one of those scenes where you would think that the story is the gods invite Elves to live in heaven and everyone goes. So it was just an interesting place for that fracture to take place, like an interesting argument over which a fracture could take place.

Whereas so and so commits murder, causing great street, like great strife and then there's a citizen among the Elves forever. But I could see that. But maybe that's just like, I don't know, maybe that's more of a human thing. So yeah, it's just been interesting just that this is such a big deal. And I do think it's interesting.

OK, two things. I think to your point, like this being the invitation that kind of divides everyone. I do feel like talking was such a study or of history and languages and seeing kind of those natural divisions that come up. I it makes sense to me that he would want to create different little histories and pockets for people and reasons why some people would love certain things.

Like the Tulare, we talk, they talk a lot about their love of the ocean and where that originates from. Yeah, like I think. Yeah, he's looking for places where he can make that like diversity of language and personality and culture almost. Well, I mean, what he's doing is he's creating peoples, right? The Elves were this unified whole and now they're not, which is very interesting because I still definitely think of them as a unified whole. Like when we when we think about the ones from the movies, do I know if they're Cinder or Noldor or Eldar? No, of course not. But I would be now interested to know. Exactly. So the technically I only looked up a few, but Galadriel is Noldor. Noldor.

Obviously, she's seen the light, right? The light of the trees and then Legolas is a wood elf. So he is Nandor. Is he Cinder or is it? I think he's Nandor looking at my little graph that I found online.

But he has not seen the light of the trees. And that's so interesting because he also has this like he still has this air of like elfish, like not glory, but like all elves are snobby. Some elves are snobbier than other elves, for sure. But yeah, but there's like an innate level of glory.

And then there's just more and more. Right? Yeah.

Super interesting. It does make me wonder if the elves who have seen the light are just a little bit snobbier than the others. Like, do they look down on other elves? I must know. In her elf gossip. I'm sure they're like back in my day when I lived.

Yes, they're constantly telling these stories. Cursed this fiendish son. If only we were lit by the trees again. Oh my gosh, that's so funny. But yes.

All right. So the net scene that happens that I think is fun is when our man Elway returns from his long trance being seduced by Malian. Oh my gosh.

And I love how it says, and he came back hotter than ever. It's so funny because literally when we were reading that chapter, you were like, I don't know about all this. I was uncomfortable with everything going on there.

That was a relationship. And I was like, oh, I'm trying to think like positively about it. But when I started reading this one, I was like, oh my gosh, all of his people were waiting for him. Like they had no clue where he was.

He was literally kidnapped by the hot sexy lady. I guess you could if you wanted to give it a little bit of like Hades Persephone vibes. But you know, switch.

That would be a very interesting, fun book. Switch Hades and Persephone. Yeah. Persephone kidnaps Hades.

Oh, interesting. Or like Hades is a woman, I guess, whichever version. However, you want to interpret it. Yes. Oh my goodness. Oh, again, there's this phrase that Tolkien uses and I know it doesn't like. I know it just means that he has a fate or whatever.

But the phrase was Elway. He now appeared as if it were a high Lord of the Meyer, his hair as gray as silver, tallest of all the children of the Louvatar. And a high doom was before him. So I know he doesn't mean doom, but that's how I feel when I read that word, even though I know he means like fate or. Yeah.

What's the other word I'm looking for? Like he's meant for a great purpose, etc., etc. But all I read is dang, something bad is coming for him. And all I can think is something bad already happened to this dude. He can't catch a break. Oh my goodness. I know, like he's literally his brain seems almost a little wiped from that experience.

I feel like that I'm glad he comes back. Yes. So this makes me super.

The fact that he does seem a little bit wiped. When we were doing Kiss, Mary, Till, and we also we were all 100 percent certain that you can't let Galagial anywhere near you. Oh, we all know it's right now. I know what happens. You go into a trance and you come back in like a hundred years. I feel like exactly. I feel like I would be a little bit stunned. You don't know. You never know.

Can't can't survive. Oh, man. I actually had something that I thought you would like that I wanted to bring up. So we were talking, seems like many, many episodes ago about Maya and different Maya that kind of report to different Valar. And they introduced some Maya here that I hadn't heard of before in this chapter. They introduced I probably not pronouncing this correctly, but I'll say and and they are Maya of Ulmo. And so they talk about these Maya becoming friends of the Tularee and then Ulmo comes back and is like, does anyone else want to go to and also was like, yeah, and he was like, leave. He was like, no, I've made friends with these people. But this is the thing.

OK, I did a little. What prevents him from visiting them in Valinor? That's what I want to know. Why is everyone making this so hard? OK, so this is well, not that this would be a huge, I guess, issue, but this is what I learned and I thought you would really enjoy these characters.

OK, so I'll say is a Maya that particularly loves. It sounds like the the rough and rowdy seas. So he's kind of in charge of like the winds, high tides. He particularly like staying out in like coves or areas where the water like dashes against the land.

And his secret hobby is drowning sailors. OK, but this is the thing that you will think is wild for a period of time at the beginning, he started listening. This is I think before Morgoth went off the first time. He started listening and being interested in the teachings of Morgoth. OK, and he has a little bit of like this dark side to hand, because later on it says that Ulmo was one who was not deceived by Morgoth. Yes. So, you know, his boss, his main man is totally not in Morgoth's camp. But he's a little bit he's a little bit friendly, a little bit sympathetic. Yeah.

And what's my old and makes sense. And so he has a little bit of this darkness to him. Yeah, like storms, all that good stuff. Surely no bad could come of this. Oh, my gosh.

That's fun. Well, it makes me think about like all of those, I don't know, like the the sea is precarious vibes because he has this wild streak to him. But he has a temper.

He has a temper. But then his wife is kind of like almost if you could think of a sea goddess vibes, like she takes care of the sea creatures. She just seems like so.

Kind of like the kind and thoughtful one of the couple. And this is what I thought was fascinating. It was so earlier when I say was kind of like listening to Morgoth and going along that route. How lay was concerned for him and chatted with Oonan and Oonan and the wife and was like, hey, you need to talk to him. And you need to come intervention.

You need to talk to him and convince him to come back to Omo. And I think this is very interested in how Alway was able to detect this in some random myer, but not able to detect it in his own students. Yeah, thoughts. Thoughts.

Wild. Is he blinded by love? I don't know. But part of me is like, well, why didn't Omo talk to him?

Why didn't Omo notice the kind of say like what's going on? Yeah, sure. It made me think because Alay has this very we talked about this. He creates the doors. He has this fatherly vibe where he's like concerned for people, you know? And I wonder if Omo, because he was so quick to kind of be like, no, more gosh bad, I wonder if like seeing someone go that route, he was like, if you're an idiot enough to think that this is valid, like, I don't know. Yeah, maybe this was more of an I'll say had to keep it a little bit secret from him. Maybe.

Yeah, actually, that's true, because then he takes him back. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm now wondering about Alay as like the the father with the favorite son who can do no wrong, a.k .a. Sarong. Yeah. Right. Don't you think a little bit because you're right. He's so concerned for others.

Yeah. And how can he be so blind? I don't know.

Maybe Sarong is just that tricky. Yeah. She is. But still, I know we need to do a deep dive on him. So we'll learn more about that. Yeah. Yeah.

But I thought that was so cool. Great. It's also funny how in love, Tolton is with the opposites attract. Yeah. He's like, let's have this dude who is like this.

And now let's have his sweet wife, who is everything better. He does have a little bit of that tendency. That's funny.

Oh, my goodness. Oh, and then something else that I saw that was kind of cool. So Keardon, the shipwright, he comes up and most recently, I think, in Rings of Power, but he is a really iconic, a really iconic elf that I feel like we hear a lot about. And he's mentioned here for the first time. So call out, keep an eye out for him.

Yeah, call out for him. I do think it's really interesting that they say, and this was the first time that they built ships. Yes.

Because that's always a big deal. I've been reading a lot of like the Punic Wars right now. And this is Rome versus Carthage, where this is the first time that Rome builds ships. Yeah. And it's it's a trial by fire for them. This is a big deal.

This is the equivalent in my mind of us building the first spaceship. Yeah. It's just it's just a big deal. It's a whole nother environment.

There's a lot of challenges involved. I love that. Like, I don't remember the name, but one particular set of the elves become sailors. Yeah. This is what they enjoy the most. And that made sense.

Like sailing is so fun. Something that stood out to me is I think this is when they get to Valinor. And yeah, this is after they did to Valinor. It mentions that the elves build a city and they called it Turians. I was just kind of surprised to see that because for some reason in my mind, I've never associated else with cities.

I had just barely learned a paragraph or two to associate that with boats. So this is a big step. So yeah, this was this was interesting to me that they had built a city. I also think it was with towers with all the trappings. I guess for some reason, because the biggest thing we see in the movies, like the most iconic elven place is Lothalorean. And for some reason, I was just assumed that they were all like that. They all had some deep woods that they liked.

Yeah. But to see them in a city, I really liked the idea of it. It was just like contrast to what I I just had assumed was the default. I also thought it was really interesting that the city, Tyrion, seemed to have several things that sounded a little bit a little bit too much like Gondor. So just yeah, in let's see, at the end of that paragraph, it talks about how they loved most the white tree, which I think is Telfurion. So Yvonne and made for them a tree like to a lesser image of Telfurion.

Say that it did not give light of its own being, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. And many seedlings were planted here and there and everywhere. And all I could think of was like the white tree of Gondor. Yes. Gondor itself must almost be an imitation of the city, Tyrion.

Their white tree must be an imitation of that original seedling, etc. I loved that. This idea that like the Gondorians are almost. Well, it's a it's a definitely what's the word I'm looking for?

It's a it's a homage, but also potentially a lark. Like they're like, we're so cool. We're not as good as the elves, blah, blah, blah.

It's just very interesting to me. And literally, it says one of the seedlings is the white tree of Numenor and guess who is the seedling of the tree of Numenor? Yeah, that's what I assumed. I saw that I was like, I'm pretty sure this is where that that little lineage goes.

Yeah, but I had not gone through the effort of looking it up. And I loved this because it made sense that this was a gift from the gods. I actually didn't know the background of the tree of Numenor or the tree of Gondor. But in the tree, the tree of Numenor is very tied to the the feelings of the Valar about the state of Numenor. And so when the Valar are pleased, it's like flourishing. When the kingdom is flourishing, the tree is doing well.

When things aren't going well, the tree starts to suffer. Yeah. And in Gondor, when you see it in the movies and like in the books, you did and maybe in the books, they give you more bats when I've just forgotten it. But in the movie, at least you you're only given a very brief introduction as Gandalf and Pippin walked past it.

Right. And even in that brief introduction, you get the sense of there's something ancient about this, there's something quasi-religious about this. It's really bad that the theme is dying, that the tree is dead. Like this is really, really ominous. And I loved that.

I love that touch. I love now seeing the shield and the the armor of Gondor with the white tree and thinking, oh, that's not necessarily representative of the white tree of Gondor alone. It's also that original tree, Tal Purion.

It's the tree of the elves. I loved that. And I get from the gods, like to your point, it's almost like this religious homage. Like it's very foundational to their, who they are as people. It's very cool. So I love that. Oh, I had to mention this because I love swans, because I love Swan Lake. And it's so fun for me that they talk about these boats and that they sent this flock of swans to come and pull the first kind of the first boat over. Literally the best tow boats you've ever seen. Amazing. But I laughed when I read that, because all I could think was, and they did not trust them to be sailors yet.

Exactly. They didn't have sails or whatever. A typical oars. They just needed a really, really nice, gentle way to say, you're not ready to sell these seas yet.

Let me send you swans. Exactly. I'm just going to give you a subtle, a nice soft ride over. Yeah, it's like when your kid's on a little, like a little bike and it's the first time that you let them ride without training wheels.

They were definitely still on training wheels at that point. For sure. But it's beautiful. The imagery is excellent. I love that imagery.

I did look up a picture that somebody had drawn of that, because it's extremely pretty. And something I'm trying to remember, I think this is in the movies. I think this is the boat that Galadriel's on. There's an image where one of the Elvish boats has a swan neck on the front of it.

Yes, it's carved in. It's almost like a winged-like look into the bow too, I think. And I think, oh my goodness, what if that's a tradition in their boats? That's a cool touch.

Because of the story of their first boats being pulled by these boats. Like, that's so cool. That would be a really cool touch. I love that.

I hadn't remembered that. I just came back from Iceland and we saw a vikimote. Wow. And it was super sick, obviously. But now it just made me think, why the heck do the vikimotives have dragons on all of their prowls? Yeah. What do we have here? That one time that a boat was pulled by a dragon?

I love that. I thought it was to be, like, intimidating. Like, we are a sea monster, but I have no clue. But imagine like the culture of the Elves clashing with a culture like the vikimotives. On the vikimotives side, you have the intimidating prow. And on the Elves side, you have swans. Swans!

But it's beautiful. I love that. Swans could be aggressive. Be right know. Oh, I would never go near one.

Oh, my gosh. They would be terrifying. Doos are too big for me.

Honestly, Dutchs are too big for me. Have you been anywhere near Turkey? No. Recently. OK, I have. And I remember thinking to myself, so I have chickens.

Yes. Chickens are great because they're so small. Like, they're small enough that you could get away from them if they really tried to come for you.

Yeah. Even though they would totally eat you if they did. But when I look at turkeys, I just there's no way I could ever keep one. They're big. They're huge. They're huge. Anyways, swans are no do for me. Yeah, yeah.

I would not probably keep a pet swan, but I think they're beautiful. OK, so now we're getting into like here the Noldor and of the Noldor, here's Finway. And from Finway, we did a lot of fricking family drama. Once you get past the genealogy. Yes.

I thought this was very interesting. So we've got like Feyenoord. OK, so hold on. So Finway, let's go through this. So Finway has three sons.

I thought this was a great way of phrasing it. So the sons of Finway were Feyenoord, Fingolfen and Finarfin. But the mother of Feyenoord was Miriel, whereas the mother of the last two was Indis. Yes. And that's all he says at first. This is your first mention of this. And all I thought was, wow, way to bury the lead. What went on? What happened?

Every time that later, what happened? But yeah, I thought that was interesting. So we have Feyenoord. He has a bunch of sons, lots of genealogy.

We have everyone else. And so Deladriel is the grand of the daughters through the lineage of Finarfin. I think so.

Is this true? I think through Fingolfen. No, Finarfin. So that was interesting. That was a name that I knew. Yeah.

And it describes it. So this is our first mention of her. It says a sister they had, Deladriel, most beautiful of all the house of Finway. Her hair was lit with gold as though it had been caught in a mesh, the radiance of Lourlan.

The other tree. A really nice way to, yeah. It's just a really nice way to phrase that.

Very beautiful. Let's see. Yeah, we have a bunch of genealogy and then we have like some description of Feyenoord and who he was like and what they're all learning from Alwe. Yes.

And that the Noldor were beloved because they love to craft things. Yeah. I'm looking through.

I think that's the end of five, or at least for me, the last thing I have from Chapter five was this quote at the very end where it says, and there also were many other creatures that have not been seen upon Middle Earth and perhaps never now shall be since the fashion of the world was changed. And I just really enjoy this. Just the way he phrased it, like the fashion of the world change. We're just going to shut off those creatures and move on to a new evolutionary branch. I like that.

I like that phrase. It's just it really captures the changing of time, like the world evolves and there's things lost to history, you know, like. And that is one of the in the intro, like the prologue, the voice over that goes on to the prologue of fellowship. That's the first words, right?

It's the world is changed. It's just so good. So good.

Okay. Chapter six. This is where we're getting into the good stuff. The drama drama.

Okay. Of Feynore and the unchanging of Melkor. Oh, poor Miriel. Yeah, I looked at that. I was like, whoa. So she gives birth and then quote after his birth, she yearned for release from the labor of living. Oh my goodness. This is like severe part, like postpartum. That's exactly what I was thinking.

Yeah. But also how would that feel to be? I guess I don't know how I would feel if I was Feynore to know that my mother gave birth to me could have lived, but chose to die. Oh, like, Dave, you know, it's so fascinating. I think that messed him up. Yeah. I think a little bit. I think so too.

Because it's just, I don't know. I thought the husband had a really interesting point, Fenway, because she, she gives birth, right? And she feels this heaviness, this sadness. And he's kind of like, where do you think she knew even in that moment that she had given birth?

I don't know if we can say he's a monster because I don't know what he does. I don't know. But that she had given birth to something that caused strife and calamity. That would be insightful. Maybe because El's have foreknowing.

Right. Maybe she did see something like that. Maybe she knew something.

I feel like he could have used her guidance. Yes. Absolutely. But it's so interesting. Sorry, what were you going to say?

No, no, no, no, no, kind of like building on, on this sadness that she's in this beautiful place, like you were saying, heaven. And Tolkien still has, this is probably the first troubled relationship. I mean, we talk, we talked about like Aue and Yvonne kind of bickering or like certain couples, but this is the first relationship where like this is almost like a mortal heaviness. You know what I mean?

Like, I don't. Well, something that's can't be resolved and isn't resolved. Yeah. Or at least not resolved in a happy manner.

Yeah. Like this is something I would anticipate from humans in like a fallen world, not elves, literally in almost like a heaven like state. But even though she was in this heaven like state, she still had this struggle to go through.

And it sounds like her husband wasn't quite understanding there. And I don't know. Yeah.

Heavy, heavy. Well, it's also just shocking that this can happen. Right. You would just think, yep, you do have birth and then you have like one or two other sons, et cetera. But she's like, nope, one.

And I'm out. And there's an interesting phrase that Tolkien uses fey and or grew swiftly as if a secret fire were tindled with him within him. And I'm just like, dang, the secret fire, that is not a good look. That that screams Mordor, Melkor, Sauron, all these other dudes with secret fire. Yeah.

And that's so interesting. Cause she says she's like, maybe there is something weird going on underneath here. Cause she tells Fenway, she's like, I'm not going to have another child because the strength that I would have had to have had more kids, the strength of many went into this one. And so I just thought that meant like, okay, she's run out of strength.

She doesn't have any more strength, but maybe there's something like more in depth there of like, oh my gosh, he really took all the lifelines. So I kind of looked at Feyenoor as almost a Prometheus character. Because at least in a lot of mythology, there's like a Prometheus character who gives to mankind fire. Sometimes I think there's like the knowledge bringer that's conflated with Prometheus who brings them writing and other stuff like that. And we have here where Feyenoor is the inventor of like the Elvis script. So he's just a brilliant, brilliant guy. He's out there doing good work, doing great things.

Um, but also being a little bit stethi. We'll get to that. Oh, there's one more quote before. So I, I don't even know what to think of this.

Fenway took as his second wife in this. Yes. Something, something, something.

She was in all ways, unlike Miriel. Yes. I don't even know. I guess what is this like a commentary on divorce?

Is this a commentary on just like how men love more types of women? Like, I don't know. It's just very interesting. And obviously it's about grief too. Like you don't want somebody who's going to remind you of your first wife who's technically dead, but also undying and you stopped visiting her undead body, et cetera. Like I get that, but I just thought that was very interesting. No, it's funny because I was reading it from like a different perspective, more on like that commentary for, for Feyenoor, because I think I've chatted with people who, you know, sometimes if they have a, they have a parent that remarries and the, the new spouse is not really like their original parent, it almost feels a little hurtful to them. Like almost feels worse.

It's like, wow, you're like, did you even love my mother? Yeah. Yeah.

And so I thought it was more of a commentary. Like I think Fenway was probably just like, wow, you're wonderful. I really like you. Like, I'm sure it was genuine, but I wonder if her Feyenoor, if it's almost like she doesn't even remind me of mom, you know what I mean? Like, yes. If there's like that thought process there. I could definitely see that, um, especially because of this Nets paragraph where basically talks about how every bad thing that's about to happen happened because Fenway was unable to deal with being single. Great phrase. So does in those unhappy things, which later came to pass and which Fader was the leader, many saw the effect of this breach within the house of Fenway, judging that if Fenway had endured his loss and been content with the fathering of his mighty son, the courses of Fader would have been otherwise. And I thought that was an, oh, and it even goes on and great evil might have been prevented. It just is fabulous for a shabby because I'm just dying to know.

But he doesn't say. Um, but yeah, can you imagine like looking onward from like an outside perspective, you're like a lesser elf, you're hanging out and you're all just like gossiping about the, the divorce of Fenway. Oh man. It's wild because it made me wonder actually, because there's multiple things here, but it made me wonder what Tolkien's thoughts, because I know he really loved his wife. He wrote a lot of like character pieces based off of her. So it made me wonder what his personal thoughts about remarrying were. And if he felt who died first, um, that's a good question.

Let me see. But I was curious if, if that's his personal thoughts were that you should not remarry that it was bad for the family and kind of like an interesting commentary. And maybe it's just a commentary in this situation. Or maybe not.

Maybe he, he didn't really think that, but just thought that, you know, a broken family can potentially be the impetus behind. Sure. Big things. Um, and I don't, it doesn't even sound that broken because Fenway still, it still says Fenway, um, you know, nor from his heart and all of whom he loved Fenor had ever the chief share of his thought. So like Fenor was prime kid to his dad, but it is not enough for Fenor. I'm going to go in and pin that right now.

It's never enough. I don't know what he does, but I'm sure it's something. That's wild. Okay. So I'm looking here now. So it looks like his wife Edith passed away in 1971. And when did Tolkien pass away? Just double checking. 1973.

So he did live only two years without her. Yeah. Interesting. I don't, I can't prove this, but I suspect men did not do as well without their wives.

My guess is probably no. But yeah, it just made me really curious about, I think it's fascinating that he thinks this, this sad thing happened kind of from a tough family situation. Like it could have been anything. But it's such an interesting point, right? This is one of those scenes where it's like, where does Tolkien choose to create the conflict? So the conflict over the question of whether or not to go to Valinor was interesting to me, right?

Because again, it's like that whole, why not go to heaven? And then this one, this one feels very, um, it's, I don't want to use the word melodramatic because that means it's overdone, but it is a dramatic, human soap opera type situation. It feels very human. It doesn't feel very elevated. It feels human.

It does not feel elf-like, but maybe we're thinking too much of them as robots. So yeah, I loved it. I thought it was great.

I was like, I enjoy the fact that whatever happened here is the cause of this large disruption because it's just one tiny little thing, right? He remarried. Yeah.

Big problems. But it's funny because part of me is like, okay, like Fainor, like get a grip. You know what I mean? Like you're an adult.

Yeah. You're an adult. You don't have to live with your half siblings. It's all cool. I know. So it, but it is interesting that he, he kind of lays it a little bit at the feet of this situation.

He doesn't just say Fainor was weak. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So yeah. Fascinating. All right.

And then from there stuff happens. Guess who has served out their prison sentence. Bump, bump, bump.

It's Milt War. Of, I thought this was great. We kind of alluded to this before where we talked about Manway and said, our man, Manway, who is also naive and unable to believe that anyone is wicked. Um, so basically Belchor says, Hey, my bail is up. Let me free. And I thought this was interesting. Nienna aided his prayer and all I could think was no, Nienna. I know. She's so sympathetic.

She can't resist. Anyways, um, and Manway couldn't perceive any problem here. Um, this is, this is how he phrased that.

I really loved it. Um, so Manway grants him the pardon and then it says, but fair seeming were all the words and deeds of Melchor in that time. And both the Valar and the elder had profit from his aid and counsel if they saw it, because he does know a lot. Uh, and therefore in a while he was driven leave to go freely about the land. And it seemed to Manway that the evil of Melchor was cheered for Manway was free from evil and he could not comprehend it. Um, yeah.

And it is again, that whole thing of somebody so pure that it cannot perceive even the, the thought of evil being, um, alluring or tempting is just so far from them. Yeah. I know.

Yeah. It's wild because you read this and you think, I don't know. You're like, man, there's so much evil. Like he burned the world the first time like he like, how do you come back for that? Thank you, Manway, for a second chances. I really enjoyed how it then goes into some exposition about how the other Valar reacted to this surprise pardon. Um, Olmo was not deceived. So he's a plus one for Hadeen Melchor.

I think also Viana gets a plus one for Hadeen. Yeah. Yeah. The wife of Manway was also like, I don't know, honey. Yeah.

And then it talked about how Tultus was a grudge bearer. Yeah. I respect him.

I get that. It says if Tultus is slow to wrath, he is slow also to forget, but they obeyed the judgment of Manway. And this was the point I really liked for those who will defend authority against rebellion must not themselves rebel. And that was a nice strong statement.

I was like, yeah, get it. You know, it's funny when I read about Tultus because he came down specifically to Arda to help get to get rid of Melchor and get that situation. And remember when Melchor disrupted his wedding night? I remember. And then Melchor came back. Tultus remembers.

And he set the world on fire on his wedding. Yeah. Everyone remembers.

Oh my gosh. Except for Manway, because Manway has been so many years past his honeymoon. He's just like, oh yeah, yeah.

Things are good. He doesn't want to do that anymore. Who would want to do that? Oh man. Oh my goodness. But this was such a good chapter. Yeah. And we're almost at the end of it too. I think that's the crux of the chapter is this. Melchor has got himself free.

There are a couple of things that are in here where we've kind of talked about this before about how Melchor hated the Eldar the most, like the elves, because he saw that they were the reason that the Valar had like acted strongly and densed him. One thing here that I enjoyed was there are a couple of lines. So there's a line here that says Melchor declared afterwards, you know, after whatever incident happens after happens, he declares that Feyenoord has learned much art from him in secret. Um, but then it says that Melchor was lying about that. Um, and that Feyenoord hated Melchor and quote for Feyenoord was driven by the fire of his own heart only.

Yeah. And I just really loved this. I guess I love the imagery of Feyenoord and fire. He has a secret fire burning within him.

He has a, he has a fire of his own heart. Think of ambition. You think of, I don't know. Yeah.

So many things. I do, but I guess I also think in general, when you think of an elf, you're thinking more like cool and cold. Whereas Feyenoord, I now see is like perhaps, um, I don't know. I just see him differently with that imagery. He's like a really fiery tempered person. Perhaps there's just like a lot of drive in him, a lot of like emotion. Maybe I don't know. I just see his character differently because I'm used to thinking of the elves as like very collected, very cold.

Wouldn't necessarily use the word fire to describe them. Um, so yeah, maybe Feyenoord is a little bit outside the norm because he's like a little bit, uh, disruptive society. I don't know. Yeah. You know what's wild to me too is so this is the first time we see, like I was saying a relationship that had some sadness and maybe not the, definitely not the best ending, but then he marries Feyenoord Marys and he had, he's married to Nardanael, Nardanael.

Um, and who was firm of will, but more patient than Feyenoord. She desiring to understand minds rather than to master them. See, and there we are into the mastery, the ruling, it's such a melanchor vibe. Um, and that does kind of also set him as like she was, she was, is basically said she was not rash the way he was. Um, so yeah, I guess we're going to see him do something like speculation.

I think we're going to see him do something to rush. I'm not sure what, um, with, when you mentioned his wife, there is one other nice sad quote about her at the very end, like these are the last words of the chapter, uh, Feyenoord asked the aid and sought the counsel of none, save only. And for a little while of his wife. Yeah.

So only a little bit, it's, it's got that feel of a little bit too late or a little bit, but not enough. And they became estranged afterwards cause his later deeds, deeds grieved her and they became estranged. And so very sad, but also she had seven sons with him.

So I'm like, Jane, I wonder if they made up a couple of times. That is commitment. But, um, yeah. So super interesting group of elves, fascinating relationships and characters. And I think we're getting into the mix of things, right? Because the next chapters here are of the similar elves and the unrest of the Noldor.

So good to know that Delagio is one of the Noldor. So we know that this is directly within her lineage. Yeah. And actually, like, isn't this now like her genealogy is very bad for me. Great uncle. Oh yeah. Cause she is.

How does that work? His brother's son's daughter. Yeah, I think his brother's no, no, she, okay. We can't do this live after Doodle things.

Um, he would be her uncle, I think. Yeah. Let me try to find that out. Which is wild. We're talking about such ancient history to when Lord of the Rings happens.

Well, it's interesting because it just had a personal note. Yes. So he would be her uncle. It just had a personal note that whatever calamity is about to happen was directly within her family lineage.

I love that because I like her. So we've got the similar elves and the unrest of the Noldor. That'll be chapter seven.

And then chapter eight is of the darkening of Valinor day. It's gonna be good. I'm excited for that. I think I know what's gonna happen.

I'm brilliant. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Okay. Yeah.

It's gonna be dope. Alrighty. That'll be a wrap for this time.

We'll catch you on the next couple chapters. See you later guys. Bye. Bye.